Haphazzard Casting, Thoughts?

[Stargate525]

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My friend recently invited me to play in a game he was DMing, and when he mentioned that he had overhauled the magic system, I was a little dubious. However, after playing for a while, I found that his system worked quite well. I'm putting what I know of it here, since he asked for my help in perfecting the system, and I see quite a bit of potential in it.

Alright. First off, he's got one casting class that has the potential to learn all spells in the PHB (druid spells and some others are subject to his discretion), so there are no real balance issues in regard to inter-caster relations. It's what drew to this system as a candidate for my Dilandri setting. The only problem I see with this is that the spells of all the classes are learned at level, making some potentially very powerful for their level.

Spells are learned from scrolls and books, and each one has a point value. This value represents your knowledge of the spell and your ability to cast it. It can be increased when you level up, train in the spell, or successfully cast the spell. having 5 points represents that you have memorized the spell, so I assume that anything lower than this can only be raised through research. Like I said, all spells are fair game, and there are no maximum spells known (he also tells me that there is no reason you can't be trying to cast a fifth or sixth level spell at first level, but he still uses the spells per day system, so I'm a little confused here).

Casting the spell is a d20 roll consisting of your points in the spell you're casting plus your spellcraft bonus versus an unknown DC (I believe the DC for a first level spell to be around 30). A success casts as normal, and a failure does nothing. However, two failures of a level per day reduces your remaining spells by 1. So in effect, each spell slot is worth two failed castings.

He also has a system for researching a spell, but I haven't used it yet and my memory is rusty. I do know it uses some sort of mix of concentration and spellcraft checks to add points to a certain spell, and it uses up one spell slot of your highest level.

I didn't have a whole lot of time to discuss it with him there, but I do have some suggestions on how to alter it a bit. I would, instead of using spellcraft, assign a new skill for each school of magic. This would allow for greater specialization, but the skillpoints of the caster class would have to be increased. I would also scrap the spells per day system in favor of a mana point reserve or similar, since it seems to fit the concept better. I'm not certain how to handle the fact that the rolls of a spell will dramatically increase over time, so any suggestions are great for that. I'm also trying to think of a way to incorporate metamagic into this as a function of your points in the spell as well, though I'm in the dark on how to do this as well.

Credit for this concept goes to Hazzard. should he come on here and explain it more, all the better.

[Higgs Boson]

looks very interesting, if you can steal the rest of the info from your firend i would be very interested in using this in my campaign. it sounds better than the original system, mostly cause i grew up playing stuff like FF games where the magic was based of mana/MP.

[Stargate525]

looks very interesting, if you can steal the rest of the info from your firend i would be very interested in using this in my campaign. it sounds better than the original system, mostly cause i grew up playing stuff like FF games where the magic was based of mana/MP.

As soon as I get it you will get it. I want to use it too.

It was one of those moments where I heard what he said, and the only thing I could say (after a good 15 seconds of speechlessness) was 'why hasn't anyone else thought of this?'

[Higgs Boson]

people probably have, just that they dont bother advertising...or, no.....wait, maybe...WOTC is "bumping" them off before they get a chance O_o!!! QUICK! get it out while you still can!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hibou]

I actually did have something like this once, though it was only for the Sorcerer class back when I was really worried about its inability to be as effective as the wizard. I don't remember really how I did it now, but it was almost identical. The idea behind it (and in the case of the ability to cast higher levels spells at lower levels as you mentioned) in my version was based entirely on the Spellcraft skill and DCs: there was a set DC for each level of casting. In addition to DCs just being higher than a caster could easily achieve (I designed it so that a caster who had maxed Spellcraft and had a good stat or Skill Focus(Spellcraft) could achieve a casting of the spell on a roll of 10-13 on average. Certain spells had higher DCs/changed levels due to the power they had to be cast much more often.

I still had "Spells Per Day", but these only measured how many spells you could cast without starting to add DCs to the level of spells (though I had started working out an alternative where you just had a number of spells per day you could cast regardless of level). After you exhausted the spells per day, you could keep casting but the DCs for casting each time would improve by +1, making almost any spell virtually impossible after a while. I had thought about making feats or special abilities that allowed you to take some damage to reduce the increasing DCs to let you cast longer, but due to various reasons the Spellcraft-casting system never really got off the ground.

EDIT: This was a very Wild Mage-type idea, as I also included that instead of metamagic a roll of 20 you could get a "Spell Critical (and you could take feats to improve "threat" range)", where a die would be rolled and depending on the number that came up one of the spell's traits would be improved (range, damage, duration, bonus value, etc.; if one was chosen that didn't affect the spell [for example, it dealt no damage] then it was rolled again until one came up that could be used. However, I also had the idea to make "Spell Fumbles" on rolls of 1, where you had to roll again after rolling a 1. If you got a second 1, the spell either affected you instead (fireball centered on you, polymorph affecting you), or if you couldn't be affected by it for whatever reason, you rolled on a traditional "Wild Magic table" that randomly generated some fairly nasty or embarrassing effect. I had considered as well that the feats like Improved Spell Critical would not only improve chances of getting a successful "critical spell", but also improved chances of "spell fumbles" (so a feat that improved Spell Critical range from 20 to 19-20 might also increase Spell Fumble range from 1 to 1-2). Of course, some of these ideas could've been made into a PrC or something. Hell, all of it could.

[Haphazzard]

Hello everybody, first, I'd like to say that I'm glad people are interested in the system.  I'm not going to call it "my" system, because like people have said, it's a combination of other systems and other people have had the idea.  So, if I have to refer to it as anybody's system, I'd say refer to it as "The People's" system.  Because it's a system the whole family can enjoy.

First I'm going to address how to learn spells.  First you start off by rolling 1D20 + concentration.  You treat this final number like you do an ability roll and add the "bonus" to your points.  This sounds confusing already, I know, but bear with my and I'll give a couple examples.  Next, you roll 1D20 + Spellcraft + Bonus from Concentration.  Now, I'm going to give an example: Let's say you roll a 10 on your concentration and add 6.  So, you're concentration roll comes to 16.  Treat this like an ability roll (subtract 10 then divide by 2) and you'll have a +3.  Next, let's say you roll another 10 on your second D20.  Then you add your spellcraft (we'll say +5) and then you add your concentration bonus (+3) and you end up with 18.  Now, because our brains doin't retain all of what we study I divide that number in half, giving us 9.  I've based the system also on a 4 hour study period.  So if the caster dedicated 4 hours to studying they just take the 9.  If they study for 2 hours then they divide the 9 by 2.  If they study 9 hours then they divide by 4, etc.  Still confused?  Don't worry, I'll give a full example. (assume 2 hour period)
 Concentration Roll: 1D20=19             Spellcraft Roll: 1D20=14
 Concentration Skill Points: +4          Spellcraft Skill Points: +4
 Total: 23 (bonus=6)                     Concentration Bonus: +6
                                         Total: 24  
                                         24/2=12  12*1/2=6  So, 6 points total are added to that spell (pm any questions).
Now, the first five points of a spell total are considered to be from what you can read out of the book.  So, anything after that assumes the caster is practicing things like motions, pronunciation, and trying to manipulate the magical power itself.  So, a 4 hour study period would take away one cast of a spell that level for that day (basically as if you had cast a spell of that level).  So, if I'm learning light and I have 0 points the first five points are just me reading the text and it doesn't take away that cast.  However, if I'm studying light and I have 10 points in it than a 4 hour study period takes away one 0-level cast for that day.  However, with a mana system this will change (will explain later).

I'm going to adress the last line of the third paragraph "(he also tells me that there is no reason you can't be trying to cast a fifth or sixth level spell at first level, but he still uses the spells per day system, so I'm a little confused here)."  Basically a caster could study and know spells of a higher level than he can cast, but just not be able to cast those spells.  This is kinda tricky to make work with the spells-per-day system, so I'm 99.9% sure I'm going to say go ahead and change spells-per-day to some sort of mana pool(any suggestions on raw numbers would be appreciated).  Originally, I had it as a four hour study period takes away one cast of that level for the day, but if you study a level 9 spell past the first 5 points and you can't cast 9th level spells you get off easy, right?  Well, that's where I'd say that if you can't cast spells of a certain level than you can't do anything more than the text.  So, at first level you can learn 9th level spells, but only up to 5 points.  Now, if you're using the mana-pool suggestion (as I would) this becomes easier because you can just subtract the indicated number of mana away for learning a spell of that level.  Again, I'm sorry if I confused anybody.  Please, you'll have to trust me on this: it's not nearly as confusing as it sounds now.  Once you use it for a little while it'll all click together and make sense.  I'm just terrible at explaining it.  So, if you have any questions PM me and I'll do my best to explain.

I'd like to than you all again (Stargate, those that have posted, and those that post in the future) for taking interest in this system, and that I'd like to take no more credit for this than being the one to piece it together (sharing that glory with all who make suggestions) and posting it (sharing that with Stargate mostly, but others as well).  Any and ALL suggestions would be great.  Enjoy the system, tweek it as necessary, and tell us how it goes (good AND bad).

[Haphazzard]

P.S. To avoid confusion read like this:
Concentration Roll: 1D20 = 19
Concentration Skill Points: +4
Total: 23 (bonus = 6)
Spellcraft Roll: 1D20 = 14
Spellcraft Skill Points: +4
Concentration Bonus: +6
Total: 24
24/2=12
12*1/2 = 6 (2 hours out of four = 2/4 = 1/2)
So, 6 points total are added to that spell (pm any questions).

[Higgs Boson]

Ooh! *rubs hands together* cant wait to use this.....we should give a name to this system, something special....i propose: Magic System V2.0

[Stargate525]

Ooh! *rubs hands together* cant wait to use this.....we should give a name to this system, something special....i propose: Magic System V2.0

or perhaps Haphazzard casting?

That research system can be easily simplified. If we go with my suggestion of delegating the actual casting skill to a school skill, we can return spellcraft to its original purpose, which is learning spells. Axe the concentration and leave it for combat casting as normal. This simplifies the new uses that skills have to serve, and will cut down on the needed rolls for research significantly.

As for spell points, I would suggest we utilize the ones that  Wizards has so kindly figured out for us.  

[Higgs Boson]

Yes,i concur Stargate. "Haphazzard Casting" it is!!! Well, until someone comes along with a cleverer name for it.

[Haphazzard]

For the name, how about "Livre Casting."  Livre is portuguese for "free."  I thought about using the Italian "liberare," but that was a bit long and too complicated for me to pronounce at 8 a.m. on a Saturday morning.  But, after saying it out loud, it does sound much better.  Nice find on the points system Stargate.  I like some parts of it, but others...not so much.  I'd say that at this point, it's up to the DM's personal choice on what to use.  Good job guys.

[Stargate525]

Liberare Casting? You can do better than that.

As for the mana points, I was suggesting using just the tables... We're going to have to hammer out a unified system for this eventually, so the loss of the other stuff really will not matter.

I'll see if I can't get a unified casting DC formula and a point chart for metamagic; I've got nothing better to do today.

EDIT: and, as par, I'm having trouble trying to reconcile each spell level's initial DC...

[Stargate525]

Alright, I think I may have something.

If you restrict the maximum number of points in a spell to be (your level x 5), you get a sliding scale that goes from 5(basic rote memorization) to 100(complete mastery of the spell).

Now to make the DCs obtainable but not easy at the appropriate levels, I've come up with the following list:
0 = DC 15
1 = DC 18
2 = DC 21
3 = DC 23
4 = DC 25
5 = DC 27
6 = DC 29
7 = DC 31
8 = DC 33
9 = DC 35

The problem with this is twofold. One, you will still need to restrict the maximum amount of mana points you can cast at a level, and once the new level is unlocked, mastery of the spell would come ridiculously fast. I don't know how to solve the first one, but I've got a hunch about the second. If you change the learning ratios from 1 casting = 1 point to (spell level castings) = 1 point, you'll be able to slow down the advancement of points into higher-level spells.

I based this off of the sorceror's progression and mana numbers. Advice would be great.

[Higgs Boson]

i suggest the caster being able to take ten except when something happens to him while casting. example: knight has got the enemy's attention, wizard takes ten on firebolt. example 2: Goblin minion starts attacking wizard, distracting him so he cant take ten. OR, if they pass their concentration roll by, i dunno.....an extra 5? they can still take ten. just thought there should be something in there about that

[Higgs Boson]

also, i believe those DC's are a bit too high, maybe bring them down by 2 or something....cause with optimal build, right now a 1st lvl wizard with full ranks in spellcraft/whatever the skill is, would have to roll something like  a 12 or a 13, making them fail more than half the time.