Haphazzard Casting, Thoughts?

[Higgs Boson]

Well, evocation is "Spells that manipulate energy or create something from nothing" I do not see how permanency "makes certain other spells permanent." i do not see how making something permanent relates to either manipulating energy or creating something from nothing. Well, technically, one could argue that "spells are energy so making them permanent is manipulating them". However, i believe what WOTC means by "Manipulating energy" to be something like sending a fireball/chain lightning at someone/thing.

[Ra-Tiel]

Well, contingency is already evocation, and that really doesn't fit in there as well. Therefore, one more or less doesn't make the cow fat in my opinion.

[Stargate525]

I don't see what the problem is with leaving universal in there.

Ra-Tiel, your analogy's flawed. I see magic more like flavors of icecream, and universal is vanilla.

[Ra-Tiel]

I don't see what the problem is with leaving universal in there.

It's an additional skill to worry about. ;) And for what? For like 5 spells in the SRD? And I doubt there are much more "universal" spells in other supplements, at least by far not enough to warrant an extra skill imho.

Ra-Tiel, your analogy's flawed. I see magic more like flavors of icecream, and universal is vanilla.

Well, if we're going by that, let's see...

Abjuration = Apple
Conjuration = Banana
Divination = Lemon
Enchantment = Strawberry
Evocation = Coffee
Illusion = Coconut
Necromancy = Chocholate
Transmutation = Maple walnut

Universal = Frozen milk :-/

:P

[Stargate525]

I don't see what the problem is with leaving universal in there.

It's an additional skill to worry about. ;) And for what? For like 5 spells in the SRD? And I doubt there are much more "universal" spells in other supplements, at least by far not enough to warrant an extra skill imho.

Well the problem with folding them in is that you can exclude them when you specialize, and some of those are necessary.

We could just have it be a non-skill, using base spellcraft. That would also handle scribing and reading scrolls and whatnot, so the skill could be defined as 'magic 101.'

[Higgs Boson]

See, the problem with that is we're basically saying the advanced spells that bend reality to your wishes are basic magic.

[Higgs Boson]

The universal school should be there, just as long as it contains the most powerful spells. Not most damage, no. Evocation is there for that. But Universal should be the reality-bending school. Permanency is sortof like a loophole in the time-space continuum that allows you to continuously loop certain spells. OOH! New  epic spell idea: Advanced Permanency. It allows you to make most self target spells permanent, but has a very long casting time, requires multiple participants, expensive materials, and mucho experience.

[Stargate525]

See, the problem with that is we're basically saying the advanced spells that bend reality to your wishes are basic magic.

No, we're saying that the advanced spells that bend reality to your wishes is ADVANCED plain magic. Gourmet Vanilla bean ice cream, to use the analogy.

[Higgs Boson]

Well, ignoring the discrepancy, i still think Universal should be its own school, and that is because the magic it has is powerful. So, because its so powerful, the wizards need to spend skill points. Skill ranks represent the dedication and training the character has. So, if the wizard/whatever wants to bend reality to their will, they have to be proficient in reality bending.

[Higgs Boson]

Well, ignoring the discrepancy, i still think Universal should be its own school, and that is because the magic it has is powerful. So, because its so powerful, the wizards need to spend skill points. Skill ranks represent the dedication and training the character has. So, if the wizard/whatever wants to bend reality to their will, they have to be proficient in reality bending.

[Ra-Tiel]

To chime in again, I've just taken a look at the spells from the SRD that are from the "universal" school:

*

Arcane Mark
* Prestidigitation
* Permanency
* Limited Wish
* Wish
[/list]

Arcane Mark and Prestidigitation are but minor cantrips. Arcane Mark would fit perfectly well with either divination or transmutation, and Prestidigitation would go very well with either evocation or transmutation.

Permanency does modify other spells no more or less than Contigency (which is evocation), and therefore it could go with evocation just as well.

Wish and limited wish are undoubtedly powerful, but have a very costly XP component, preventing their use on a regular base. Therefore, it seems sort of a "double-punishment" to require a caster to pump skillpoints into a skill, just to be able to bleed XPs like no tomorrow. Also, these two would fit well with evocation or transmutation.

[Higgs Boson]

Why don't we move Contingency to Universal then? And with the double punishment, you have to keep in mind, we  are talking about the bending of the universe to the player's will, so don't you think it sohuld be very difficult to do? And not be able to be used on a regular basis?

[Ra-Tiel]

Why don't we move Contingency to Universal then?

Of course, that would be completely possible. If that made sense, however, I'm not so sure. There are already quite some spells that should be "universal" but aren't (like the various symbols, imho). Making one of them "universal" instead of ditching the universal school and focus completely on the 8 schools is quite the opposite of my idea, and doesn't really help the issue at hand. You'd now have an extra school for 6 singular spells instead of 5. In my eyes still not enough to warrant that hassle and [possible] skillpoint investment.

And with the double punishment, you have to keep in mind, we  are talking about the bending of the universe to the player's will, so don't you think it sohuld be very difficult to do? And not be able to be used on a regular basis?

Well, but that is already represented by the XP component, don't you think? It'd be like making the fighter put ranks in Craft(basketweaving) to be able to use the +3 keen holy greatsword he just bought with his wealth. :P

[Higgs Boson]

I'm sorry, but thats a VERY poor analogy. :D

[Ra-Tiel]

I know. But I'm soooo tired. x. Please bear with me. :P