Haphazzard Casting, Thoughts?

[Haphazzard]

I'd say make it one for a 0-level. You won't be screwing those up much anyway.

I don't like this business of 'incomplete' spells. Learning the spell enough to cast it should be a complete spell. The bonus from casting it, I think, should represent the tweaks you've made to it to get it to run better, faster, whatever.

Also, what you've got means that a wizard doesn't completely learn a single spell until it gets to 100, which is silly. He continually fine-tunes it, that I could see...
[/quote]
We could do it the way I said and have incomplete spell knowledge increase the dc, but the caster could also learn the spell over 100% and have the % over 100 lower his dc.  The number over 100 shows that he's working on bettering the spell.  Like a cook.  You follow the recipe until you know enough to alter it and make it taste better.

By the way, is anybody making a Character sheet for this?

[Stargate525]

That's the original spell DC I had chosen for a lvl 0 spell.

And that has to do with an arbitrary 100% learning mark how exactly?

We could do it the way I said and have incomplete spell knowledge increase the dc, but the caster could also learn the spell over 100% and have the % over 100 lower his dc.  The number over 100 shows that he's working on bettering the spell.  Like a cook.  You follow the recipe until you know enough to alter it and make it taste better.

yeah, or you could combine the two. Using a raw percentage thing like yours is far too complex to have to continually change it after aver few castings, and mine might be too simple.

What is you have a hierarchy of spells (we'll call them circles for now) that determines the complexity and mastery of the spell. Every spell a caster learns starts at circle zero, which comes with a negative modifier to the roll. It's a rote spell, unoptimized for the caster's particular style, like breaking in a new pair of shoes. To advance that spell up the hierarchy (and gather ever-increasing bonuses to it), you need to cast it a number of times equal to spell's level x 5 x circle you're trying to reach, with 0 counting as 1/2. So if we want to bump our zero level spell into the first circle, we need to successfully cast it three times (.5x5x1 rounded up). To get it to the second circle, you'd need to do it five times (.5x5x2), and so on. This way, cantrips become secondhand very, very quickly while higher level, more complex spells might take dozens or hundreds of castings to get past the first two or three circles.

Something completely unrelated to that just occurred to me. Since this entire system is based on how you actually do things in game, how will you be able to artificially level up a character? We need some sort of table with castings that you can spend on spells to get a 5th level sorceror, for instance.

By the way, is anybody making a Character sheet for this?

Once we get the thing cemented I could probably cobble one together.

[Haphazzard]

What is you have a hierarchy of spells (we'll call them circles for now) that determines the complexity and mastery of the spell. Every spell a caster learns starts at circle zero, which comes with a negative modifier to the roll. It's a rote spell, unoptimized for the caster's particular style, like breaking in a new pair of shoes. To advance that spell up the hierarchy (and gather ever-increasing bonuses to it), you need to cast it a number of times equal to spell's level x 5 x circle you're trying to reach, with 0 counting as 1/2. So if we want to bump our zero level spell into the first circle, we need to successfully cast it three times (.5x5x1 rounded up). To get it to the second circle, you'd need to do it five times (.5x5x2), and so on. This way, cantrips become secondhand very, very quickly while higher level, more complex spells might take dozens or hundreds of castings to get past the first two or three circles.

I actually really like that idea.  Couple questions:

Where are we starting with that?  Basically once a caster learns the spells to 100% they go into the 0 circle?  Or are all spells in the 0 circle?  How does it tie in that way?  How many circles will there be?  How will each circle effect the spell?  

[Stargate525]

Ok, the DC to cast a 0 lvl spell is 23. (on the old system with the D20 + points in the spell etc.)  Let's say I've studied that spell and aquired 20 points in it (using the system in the first post I put into this on the first page).  That means that I have the spell 87% complete.  Pay attention, cuz I think that's where I lost you.  We take the points we have at the beginning, and turn it into a %.

I understood what you did, I'm just confused why you took the DC to cast and made that the '100%' mark, since you'll get a 100% success rate far sooner.

I actually really like that idea.  Couple questions:

Where are we starting with that?  Basically once a caster learns the spells to 100% they go into the 0 circle?  Or are all spells in the 0 circle?  How does it tie in that way?

All spells start at circle zero with no points. This represents a base, unmodified spell. Brand new shoes, a clean notebook, choose your analogy.

How many circles will there be?  

I figured we could just mirror the spell level system, and have circles 0 through 9, with 'circle 10' being the absolute limit and represents complete perfection of the spell.

How will each circle effect the spell?  

I'm not certain yet. I'd say we start with a negative -4 to the roll at circle 0, then give a cumulative four for every circle, to a max of +36 at circle 9. If we do a perfect circle 10, that bonus would be 40.

[Haphazzard]

I'm not certain yet. I'd say we start with a negative -4 to the roll at circle 0, then give a cumulative four for every circle, to a max of +36 at circle 9. If we do a perfect circle 10, that bonus would be 40.

That part I'm fine on, and we can detail at another time AFTER we get this "circle" thing worked out.

[Stargate525]

It was a number everybody knew, that way I wasn't pulling a number out of nowhere and making people go "Wait, where did he get that 15 from?"  That's what we in the biz like to call "an example."

har. har. har. look at me laugh.  :dots:

But then a caster could just randomly take a poke at any spell he wants.  Thereby defeating the whole "Learning spells" idea.  I still think that a PC should spend time researching the spell before being able to have a go at it.  It's like your chemistry teacher putting you in a lab with a bunch of chemicals that aren't labeled, no book, and saying "Make Sulfer Diiodide."

Well you have to learn the spell first. I thought you were asking if they had to cast the spell a number of times before 'knowing' the spell, which they don't. Before this, you had a percentage of knowing, so my confusion is justified. In this system, you would learn (as in obtain) a spell in the normal way, by grabbing it out of a book or scroll. You would learn (as in climb the ranks of circles) by casting.

[LordVreeg]

[blockquote=Stargate]Well you have to learn the spell first. I thought you were asking if they had to cast the spell a number of times before 'knowing' the spell, which they don't. Before this, you had a percentage of knowing, so my confusion is justified. In this system, you would learn (as in obtain) a spell in the normal way, by grabbing it out of a book or scroll. You would learn (as in climb the ranks of circles) by casting.[/blockquote]
Just avoid the damn learn word.  'Obtain' and 'improve' are the two operative terms, right?

And based on what you are trying to do, I'd just dump the levels of spells altogether, and go with what you are doing and assign them % DC.

Oh, and by the way...
[blockquote=stargate525 the illuminated]I didn't have a whole lot of time to discuss it with him there, but I do have some suggestions on how to alter it a bit. I would, instead of using spellcraft, assign a new skill for each school of magic. This would allow for greater specialization, but the skillpoints of the caster class would have to be increased. I would also scrap the spells per day system in favor of a mana point reserve or similar, since it seems to fit the concept better. I'm not certain how to handle the fact that the rolls of a spell will dramatically increase over time, so any suggestions are great for that. I'm also trying to think of a way to incorporate metamagic into this as a function of your points in the spell as well, though I'm in the dark on how to do this as well.[/blockquote]

My system does do all of the above, at least in one way that may not be the way you'd like to go.   I will mention only cuz I know you've at least scanned my scattered and diffuse Homebrew.  I think you need to assign each spell a mana cost and a success % DC, and I personally think that a fail should cost the Mana...start getting casters into the habit of using extra points as well as magical helpers.  

[Stargate525]

Just avoid the damn learn word.  'Obtain' and 'improve' are the two operative terms, right?

QFT. I'll be using those in the future.

And based on what you are trying to do, I'd just dump the levels of spells altogether, and go with what you are doing and assign them % DC.

We did. It got a little lost in there, but the DC is currently 60 an undetermined modifier for level. the levels of spells was to represent a bonus to the roll, not a DC to cast.

My system does do all of the above, at least in one way that may not be the way you'd like to go.   I will mention only cuz I know you've at least scanned my scattered and diffuse Homebrew.  I think you need to assign each spell a mana cost and a success % DC, and I personally think that a fail should cost the Mana...start getting casters into the habit of using extra points as well as magical helpers.  

Please refresh my mind or post a link, I'm hazy on what it was you did. As it stands, a failed spell eats half of what would have been expended. We mey have to bump that number up after playtesting.

[Stargate525]

Okay, Happhazzard casting in one east to read post! I've marked things in red that I'm not certain on.

Obtaining Spells
Spells are acquired as is normal for your class (scribe into spellbooks, automatically known, whatever). If you're using this to replace each caster individually, nothing else happens.

If you're using the system to replace casters, all spells are available. obtaining one that is not on your normal spell list requires an adjustment of your caster level, as is shown below.

[table=Caster Level Penalty] [tr][th]Class[/th][th]Bard[/th][th]Cleric[/th][th]Druid[/th][th]Paladin[/th]
[th]Ranger[/th][th]Sorc/Wiz[/th][/tr]
[tr][th]Bard[/th]    [td]0[/td][td]2[/td][td]2[/td][td]2[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]Cleric[/th]  [td]2[/td][td]0[/td][td]1[/td][td]1[/td][td]2[/td][td]2[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]Druid[/th]   [td]2[/td][td]1[/td][td]0[/td][td]2[/td][td]0[/td][td]2[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]Paladin[/th] [td]2[/td][td]1[/td][td]2[/td][td]0[/td][td]3[/td][td]3[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]Ranger[/th]  [td]1[/td][td]2[/td][td]0[/td][td]3[/td][td]0[/td][td]2[/td][/tr]
[tr][th]Sorc/Wiz[/th][td]1[/td][td]2[/td][td]2[/td][td]3[/td][td]2[/td][td]0[/td][/tr]
[/table]
For instance, a level 8 sorceror wishing to obtain a Paladin spell will cast it as though  he were a 5th level sorceror for all statistics regarding the spell. In addition, the spell has a (CL penalty x 10) increase in its base casting DC.

Because some spells appear on multiple lists, the guidelines for taking them are to use the version on your spell list first, then from the class that matches your magic type, either divine or arcane. If neither of those apply, take the highest level example of the spell.

Casting and Improving Spells
Spells are cast off of a mana point system, where spells per day are broken into a mana pool, allowing any combination of spells to be cast. Each level of spell has a different base cost, as shown below;

[table=Spell cost][tr][th]Level[/th][th]Cost[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]0[/td][td]1[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1[/td][td]2[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2[/td][td]4[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3[/td][td]6[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4[/td][td]8[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5[/td][td]10[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6[/td][td]12[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7[/td][td]14[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8[/td][td]16[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9[/td][td]18[/td][/tr]
[/table]

Converting the amount of points a class gets is easy. Simply take the spells cast per day and convert them into points. For example, a 5th level sorceror would get 34 points; six for each of his 0 level spells, 12 for his first level slots, and 16 for his second level slots. For levels 10-20, divide that total by 1/10th of the level. For example, the total mana at 18th level would be divided by 1.8

Casting a spell now requires a roll of a d%, against a DC of 50 + (spell level x 10). This DC can be adjusted by the use of additional mana, shown in the table below;
[table=metamagic][tr][th]Additional points[/th][th]DC reduction[/th][/tr]
[tr][th]3[/td][td]5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7[/td][td]10[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]13[/td][td]15[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]21[/td][td]20[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]31[/td][td]25[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]43[/td][td]30[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]57[/td][td]35[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]73[/td][td]40[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]91[/td][td]45[/td][/tr][/table]

The roll made against this DC is as follows;
1d100 + (Skill Bonus in the governing school) + (Spell Mastery Bonus)

Each school of magic is now its own skill, whose bonus goes towards your roll. The Universal Skill is folded into spellcraft. A large number of ranks will get you a certain number of bonus points to use on spells in that school.

Spell Mastery represents your affinity for the articular spell you're casting. Spell Mastery is divided into 9 different levels, called circles, of magic. Each circle provides a cumulative +4 bonus to the roll, starting at -4 at circle zero. For instance, a spell being cast at circle 4 provides a +12 to your roll.

Circles are reached by multiple castings of the spell. To reach a new circle, it needs to  be cast a number of times equal to spell's level x 5 x circle you're trying to reach, with 0 counting as 1/2. So to get a zero level spell into the first circle, we need to successfully cast it three times (.5x5x1 rounded up). To get it to the second circle, you'd need to do it five times (.5x5x2), and so on.

Metamagic
Casting metamagic in this system is slightly different. To determine the number of points, simply boost the spell level as normal for spells-per-day casting as normal. The difference comes in with the casting check. Using metamagic increases the Dc to cast the spell, as follows;
[table=metamagic][tr][th]Level increase[/th][th]DC increase[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]+0[/td][td]0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]+1[/td][td]15[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]+2[/td][td]30[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]+3[/td][td]45[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]+4[/td][td]60[/td][/tr][/table]

[Higgs Boson]

I've been trying to catsh back up, but the text was toomuch. Tables ftw!

[Stargate525]

I've got an idea for arcane spell failure. What if we double the numbers, then apply it as a penalty to the roll to cast?

[Stargate525]

For the matter of mana-per-level, I used the link in the first couple posts ( This ) and modified a little bit.  I say we drop their suggested mana-per-lvl and use my own.  Basically, add one to each of the numbers on the spell point costs.  That makes lvls 0-9: 1,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18 points per-spell respectively.  Now, take your PH and go to pg 52 (chart of Sorc. spells-per-day) and apply the numbers above to that chart.  
First lvl gets 11 points (5 0's//3 1st)
Second lvl gets 14 points (6 0's//4 1st)
Fifth lvl gets 34 points (6 0's//6 1st//4 2nd)

That won't work. I've done the math, and that gives a sorceror over 546 mana at 20th level, enough for 30 level nine spells. Obviously this is far too powerful. Cut that in half, and you're close to what the original points per day is on the chart in the SRD. I think we need to go with that.

[LordVreeg]

I think you are right.  For those campaigns that have the high level casters, the hope is to create a more flexible system, not a more powerful one.

Like your simple streamline of the arcane spell failure.

[Stargate525]

okay, I've got a chart!
[spoiler]
  [/spoiler]


Type 1 is the first recommended spell point idea, simply converting spells per day into points and adding them together.

Type 2 is the same as type 1 until level 10, at which point it is (type 1 / (level/10)). So for 18th level it's divided by 1.8.

Type 3 is that same concept applied to the entire 1-20 range.

Type 4 is a linear progression based on 1/2 of type 1's maximum.

[Haphazzard]

I've got an idea for arcane spell failure. What if we double the numbers, then apply it as a penalty to the roll to cast?

Wouldn't it be better to just take the number?  It's already hard as heck to cast spells.  I mean, I only spend about 1/3 of my mana in a day casting SUCCESFULLY.  We went over that in the playtest, remember?

My vote goes to type 2.