Discussion: Empire

[LordVreeg]

Okay, I don't know how I was subverted away from 'Langauge and History of the Big Al's Cantina-Empire to helping  build a big mobile war tower, but I am going to try to do both.  

First off...
Siege towers.
Centuries later, their use spread throughout the Mediterranean. The biggest siege towers of antiquity, such as the Helepolis of the siege of Rhodes in 305 BC (called "The Taker of Cities"), could be as high as 135 feet and as wide as 67.5 feet.[2] Such large engines would require a capstan to be moved effectively. It was manned by 200 soldiers was divided into nine stories; the different levels housed various types of catapults and ballistae.[2] Subsequent siege towers down through the centuries often had similar engines.
Siege towers also became more elaborate during the medieval period; at the Siege of Kenilworth Castle in 1266, for example, 200 archers and 11 catapults operated from a single tower.

SO we have, without (presumably) magic, this over 100 foot tall tower used in battles, and carted around to different cities.  I think with a little magic, we could do even better, and stronger, and a bit more mobile.  [note]Even without my stupid, crazy techno-mages.  [/note]  
Not that I am advocating bigger, but I do think that with a bit of proper alchemy, it could happen.



Now.  Back to business.
[blockquote=Stargate525]The problem with high magic is that the way that D&D is set up, offensive magics are far more effective at large scale destruction than defensive magics are at large scale protection. When facing a magical attack, your best bet is to simply get out of the way. [/blockquote]
Agreed.  Many people have switched systems altogether, changed games, or made up games due to this particular inequity.  Counter measures are unequal to the forces that can be brought to bear.  Our siege tower had better be fireproofed damn well.
Of course, you can just make major offensive spells a little more expensive, and that would solve a lot of that.

[blockquote=More quoteables from Stargate525]Language, my vote's for 'Canderis.' We could also use that list of derivitives for locations. Perhaps the capitol city is named Alcanis, or something.[/blockquote]

I think this would be a great name for the Original Vehicular Language from Al's Empire.

[Poseptune]

For siege towers, I don't think we would have to go any bigger than the size you posted. 135 by 67.5 ft.

[Stargate525]

For siege towers, I don't think we would have to go any bigger than the size you posted. 135 by 67.5 ft.

QFT. Even I wasn't being that ambitious. 135 feet is 23 7ft. floors, and assuming they're square and slope inward to half of that at the top, that's the tonnage of a 370ft schooner. That's downright frikkin' HUGE. These things would quite literally be land battleships.

[Poseptune]

There were usually 9 floors. Meaning the spacing between the floors was about 15 feet.

[LordVreeg]

And remember, those were siege towers, built to awe and all that, but whose primary goal was to attack walls at something close to even odds.  

So what influence level is the theocratic influence within the Empire going to be?  Are we going to have the Cardinals/High Initiates vying for control of the New Court?  Supporting the new regime, or trying to control it?  Will they field their own forces?

[Túrin]

Good question. I can easily see the Saint-religion and the new Imperial Government being closely entwined, quite possibly with the Emperor relying on the clergy to retain control.

The Saint-religion might use this to exert influence on all kinds of things. I suppose we're going to have to think about its goals and motivations. Ddin't Rose have some ideas about the details of the Saint-worshipers?

Túrin

[Poseptune]

I haven't seen Senior Montague on in a while. I've been trying (lightly not to the point of badgering) to expand upon the idea of the Saints.

I can see the Emperor using the leaders and important of the pasts as the platform on which he builds the current Empire.

Maybe the next highest ranking person is the Head of Saints worshiping. Perhaps the priests don't agree with how the Emperor is running the Empire, but they don't say or do much because the Emperor is believed to be a demigod.

So we can have a few weak links in the Empires chain:
Quick expansion spreading troups too thin.
Massive building projects.
The higher priest don't trust him and are looking for a way to replace him, but the people believe him to be part god, or even the voice of the saints.

Just some random thoughts

[LordVreeg]

first off, i posted this in the wrong post, so here is this.
[blockquote=idiot who doesn't look where he is posting]I see big slavery here, in the Empire, as we get more roman-esque. Expansion feeds growth and need for new slaves.

Saint worship might condone this, I would say. BAsed on Saint worship, we can say that older families with old imerial ties (espefcially those with saints in their family tree) are a litle 'closer-to-god', citizens born in the empire are still tied to the saints, 1st generation citizens are pretty low on the totem pole (Genus Minimus), but those outside the Empire are seen as the great unwashed by the church.
Readymade class warfare, here we come! [/blockquote]

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Also, the need for slave labor can really be a goad for the expansionist urges of our multitasking-challenged emperor.

[blockquote=SeaGod]So we can have a few weak links in the Empires chain:
Quick expansion spreading troups too thin.
Massive building projects.
The higher priest don't trust him and are looking for a way to replace him, but the people believe him to be part god, or even the voice of the saints.[/blockquote]

Well put.  I mentioned this earlier, but can we throw in a patrician caste built of wealthy, old empire families, the wealthy .1% with estates, slaves, and tons of money.  Some of them allied with the New government, some with the SAint-Church, some with ties to the guilds...
 

[Stargate525]

The problem you immediately get with conquest slavery is that since their kids aren't also slaves, it's quite literally 'expand or die,' since you'll run out of slaves and crash your economy.

That could be interesting... the Emperor doesn't want to conquer anyone else, but is forced to in order to let his economy wean itself off of slaves... hmm.

[Poseptune]

The kids will eventually become slaves. Kids make a great bargaining tool. Parents want to try to revolt, kill the kids.

Here is my take on non-human kids and the Empire:

Children are taken from their parents at a young age. The parents are promised that they will survive and be fed and sheltered if the parents work and submit to their masters. The promises are kept. The children are taught that they are born from scum and their parents and their beliefs are evil. The only way to rid themselves of this evil and get in the good graces of the Saints (or a Saint) is to work hard for the Empire without expecting compensation for any of their work. They are taught humans are genuinely good and above evil. Any horrible thoughts about their supervisor/masters is their evil nature taking over. They must help rid their fellow vile creatures of this evil and inform the humans of what is being said or planned against them. By doing this they are helping the humans help rid their friends of evil and are resisting their own evilness. Thus the slaves grow up to believe that the Empire is just trying to help them and revolts are quickly squashed (making it a little harder for the PCs to get them to revolt, but with the right persuasion [and/or if one is human] it is possible. The PCs just have to deal with tattle tails.) The Empire would makes slaves that want to be slaves.

Once the first wave of children have been brain washed and possible before the Empire would use the current slaves as breeding stock to supply more slaves. They will still need to conquer more lands for resources and able bodied slaves. (the children need time to grow and be brainwashed.)

[LordVreeg]

[blockquote=Stargate525]That could be interesting... the Emperor doesn't want to conquer anyone else, but is forced to in order to let his economy wean itself off of slaves... hmm. [/blockquote]

Well, I actually had it in my head that the children of slaves were also born as slaves.  They can be freed, and were often promised freedom later in life, or for their children, to elicit better behavior.  I can, for some reason, see a large part of the ecomomy being based on slave labor.  But the majority needs to make that decision.

[Stargate525]

Poseidon, I thought we were going for a more latent evil than that. What you're suggesting immediately conjures up an image of some dark tower with a cackling dude in a shadowy robe at the top. I mean I could see adventurers fighting for the empire to some extent, but that's just barbaric.

And anyway, didn't we decide that conquered 'slaves' would eventually work their way into citizenship, or was that muffled by the couch cushion?

[Poseptune]

Not much discussion about the citizenship has arisen. I posted a proposal, but it has sat back on page 2 ever since. :(

I may have gone too dark, but teaching the next generation of slaves that they are evil and the Empire is all the is good with the world isn't a dark tower. It can be as simple as a required school time during the day that the children learn their evilness and learn to be good to rid themselves of the evilness.

Now if we go with domains and lords then it is up to the domain how harsh the teachings are. But when slaves start to outnumber the population you have to take measures to ensure that they stay submissive. Teaching them that the Empire is the only good in the world is one of the best ways.

[LordVreeg]

MMmm.  Whenever I come back, so much fun thinking has gone on.

I like how we are tying the citizenship, slavery, and the religion together.  It actually is making some sense.

1) Saint church has sanctified the works of Big Al's Cantina.  So that The Old Families are not just elevated by wealth and history, but actually by belief. Citizenship is not just aspired to for it's secular benefits, but actually as a moral imperitive...So wonderfully, subtly, lawfully not-good.

2)Slaves taken in are told that their children might be freed to be citizens if they behave properly; second generations are brought up in the church to aspire to becoming part of the Empire not just to become citizens, but to become morally clean, to be reborn.  
[blockquote=Poseidon]Children are taken from their parents at a young age. The parents are promised that they will survive and be fed and sheltered if the parents work and submit to their masters. The promises are kept. The children are taught that they are born from scum and their parents and their beliefs are evil. The only way to rid themselves of this evil and get in the good graces of the Saints (or a Saint) is to work hard for the Empire without expecting compensation for any of their work. They are taught humans are genuinely good and above evil. Any horrible thoughts about their supervisor/masters is their evil nature taking over. They must help rid their fellow vile creatures of this evil and inform the humans of what is being said or planned against them. By doing this they are helping the humans help rid their friends of evil and are resisting their own evilness. Thus the slaves grow up to believe that the Empire is just trying to help them and revolts are quickly squashed (making it a little harder for the PCs to get them to revolt, but with the right persuasion [and/or if one is human] it is possible. [/blockquote]

That is perfect.  Just where I thought we were driving, but what a bus you drive, SeaGod.

3) Almost all historical slave-supported economies never ceased needing slaves.  With all the building projects going onnot to mention the money made on slaves by the merchant class and their patrons, the Old Families.  Slaves are property and therefor wealth in a society like this, and with the Empire going broke and building so much, they need money and labor.

I have to go look at other threads for this, but to take the next few steps, I have to find
the racial info postings.  Then, with the Rose not on, I'd like to get some handle on SAint worship vs. ancestor worship.  Old Families with ancestors that were honored by the earlier Emperors, is their ancestor worship due to their relationship with the older groups? Families trying to push the elevation of Bob who was the right hand of an EMperor, not to a saint level, but some sort of beatification?

[LordVreeg]

Okay.  Citizen info.
[blockquote=Son of Chronos]Stage 0: Just conquered. Almost no rights. Can earn money, but must pay heavy tributes from that money to the lord of the domain and the Empire. Cannot own land. Cannot travel. Cannot wear any colored clothes.

Stage 1: Minimum of five years of loyalty. Tributes are lessened, Can serve in the military (as infantry or crew only). Have a few rights. Cannot own land. Cannot travel, unless part of the military. Clothes may have earthtoned dyes.

Stage 2: Minimum of ten years of loyalty (outstanding military service can lessen the required years). Tributes are once again lessened. More rights are bestowed. Can travel throughout the realm of the Empire. Can wear more lively colors. Cannot own land. Can be trained as archers and support roles in the military.

Stage 3: Minimum of fifteen years of loyalty(outstanding military service can lessen the required years). Tributes are once again lessened. Full citizen rights. Can own land. Can hold any non-high level military position. Can be trained to use magic. [/blockquote]


Don't know about the colored clothing.  Prostitutes and entertainers (and and Empire NEEDS these...) are going to wear brightly colored clothes.

I would also add at level 0, they must be sponsored by an Old Family or someone who is supported by them, like in a mechant class (serfdom, in a way.  They may get out of slavery, but not too far, not too fast.).  Cannot be taught to use numbers or to read/write, if they do not know.  Cannot bear weapons.

At level 1, can carry a dagger or club, can be taught numbers, but not to read/write.

at level 2, allow them to be taught to read and write.

See, there is no forgetting your citizenship post.