World War II and High Fantasy

[Gnomemaster]

So I was struck by a thunderbolt idea while I was making coffee at Barnes and Noble Cafe' I'm thinking about taking themes from WW II (such as qualities of the different faction) and combining them with High Fantasy

For example: The Elves were hit the hardest during the last war, after years of living in squalor, the proud elves have risen again, bent on the destruction of all the lesser races. The elves were the first of the gods' creations to walk the land, and they will be the last. The Elves are a powerful magical juggernaut, having already struck out against the neighboring Half-Elves to scrub away all remnants of the bastard off shoot.

you like that? Nazi Elves! what's not to love? Instead of airplanes they ride aerial creatures (giant eagles, owls, hippogriffs etc.) instead of tanks they ride giant fire breathing lizards. Let me know if I have a good setting here.

I know that Turtledove wrote a fantasy story based on WW II but I have yet to read it (I hope to read it soon)

I have no idea how the factions are going to be, and be forewarned that the leaders of the generals and kings of these factions may be similar to their real world counterparts, don't expect to see Adolf Shimmerleaf.

[Jharviss]

I think it'd be a very interesting setting if you really gave it the feel of WWII but kept it medieval fantasy.  When I say that, I mean you should have all of the elements of the war -- explosions, trenches, even "submarines" (sea-serpents?) -- and then go fantasy.  I think this setting has the potential to be pretty cool, but I think it's also something that would first have to be over the top, then brought back down to a realistic point.

Very hard to say.

[Jürgen Hubert]

GURPS WWII: Weird War Two has some ideas on this.

Plus the entire GURPS line is extremely conductive to such cross-genre games...

[SDragon]

Check out Fiendspawn, if you ever get a chance. It's much closer to Eberron-esque fantasy then it is to "high" fantasy, but the WW2 theme in it still might be interesting.

[Gnomemaster]

well the thoughts that I had were about air forces, The Elves may fly on giant eagles launching enchanted arrows, then when I thought about the b-52, I came up with the idea of the Sky Chariot, the chariot is the size of a boat that allows for 2-6 people to sit comfortably and to operate some of the weaponry aboard. It's enchanted to be buoyant and pulled by flying creatures that are tethered to it.

I can see some big ocean battles with giant ships covered in armored plating.

A thought on factions:

The Elves: devastated by the last war, they have rallied around the idea of destroying, once and for all, the scourge of the lesser races. In the eyes of the Elves they are the perfect race and will not suffer the weak to live.

The Dwarves: They are a cold and dour people, who at one time had been allied with the elves, but now work together to put a stop to their Alliance. The Dwarven campaigns are some of the deadliest, bitter, and most terrible of aspects  of the war.

Half-Elves: Having put a stop to the Elves before, the Half-Elves feel themselves being crushed under the Elven juggernaut. They are the Elves' first target because of their ancestry, by the midpoint of the war half of the Half-elven kingdom is destroyed and occupied until the Humans arrived to help.

Humans: At first, the Humans desired neutrality, hoping to avoid any blood shed similar to the last war. However, after a treacherous attack by the Orc Empire, the Humans have rallied and pushed to liberate the Half-Elves and to return vengeance for the thousands of lives lost at the Orc attack.

Orcs: After centuries of isolationism, the Orc Empire longed to expand, seeing an opportunity in the Humans, the mighty Orc warriors staged what was meant to be a coup de grace against he slumbering nation. Instead, their attack, while successful, rallied the humans making them a stronger foe then they could ever imagine.

Gnomes: Gnomes had always been an artistic race that have been inventing and innovating for centuries. When Garick Redtree came to power he established a fascist regime of nationalism, military power, and strict censorship of any opponents.

[Epic Meepo]

I know that Turtledove wrote a fantasy story based on WW II...

And don't forget J.K. Rowling. The last three Harry Potter novels are supposedly based on themes from WW II.

[Gnomemaster]

true, this is a more direct representation of a world at war. I thought about the way adventures would probably run, players might be spies, or they might be soldiers, or freelancers.

I also had another idea for a unit: Soldiers who specialize in deep strikes may use featherfall to leap out of airships, they could also use invisibility on themselves to make it easier for them to sneak on through enemy lines.

[Epic Meepo]

I thought about the way adventures would probably run, players might be spies, or they might be soldiers, or freelancers.

Don't forget archaeologists. As in: Indiana Jones stopping the Nazis from getting their hands on the Holy Grail. After lots of fight scenes, dungeon-delving, and trap-finding, no less).

Incidentally, are you thinking of having a monolithic evil like the Nazis? Or is your setting going to be more like the First World War where everyone was fighting but there were few clear-cut villains.

[Gnomemaster]

definitely the latter, In my opinion, monolithic evil is often too simple, and for a campaign setting like this i don't want the game to run like this:

Players: Can we be elves?
DM: No, elves are all evil in this world, you can only be human, dwarven, or half-elf.
Players: Awww... No Legolas...

To me, that's too rigid. Plus, why go to all the trouble of thinking so much about elves only to say "No elf players unless you are evil"

To me, each faction is working to further it's own goals which they see as good. Each faction wants to win the war regardless the costs, that's why Humans put every man and woman they can into the trenches, that's why the Elves made a pact with the devil, that's why Gnomes create massive war engines regardless of the costs.

So as I thought about it, I wondered, what kinds of advantages and disadvantages would each army have over the other? this is what I got:

Humans: Pro: Humans breed quickly and every citizen is required to serve 5 years in the military. Therefore, the Humans Army is vast.

Con: Humans tend to be generalized warriors, there are very few elites in their army.

Elves: Pro: They made a deal with Asmodeus, he would bolster their ranks with demonspawn, and they would dedicate their kills to the devil prince.

Con: Elves have a small army that is magically strong but physically weak. They do not breed nearly as quickly as humans.

[Zafuel]

Incidentally, are you thinking of having a monolithic evil like the Nazis? Or is your setting going to be more like the First World War where everyone was fighting but there were few clear-cut villains.

No clear cut villains?

Let's add things up shall we?
- Germany strikes first against France through the Schlieffen plan.
- Germany attacks Russia.
- Treaty of Brest-Litovsk; harsh treaty by the Germans annexing large parts of Russia. Ridiculous, accepted because Lenin has little choice in the matter.
- As the Allies push back on the Western Front, the Germans deliberately ruin industry within occupied areas out of spite.
- The Allies do not invade Germany, and instead call for a cease-fire.
- Despite the precedent of Brest-Litovsk, the Allies end up with a treaty that, while far from perfect, was not the harsh control-measure that the Germans would have demanded had they one. (Brest-Litovsk as a precedent.)

I am aware the war would have probably broken out even without the Central Powers striking first, but we can't judge on what "might have happened", only what actually did.
Okay, its not so clear cut as in the Second World War, but I think it was clear who was the aggressors here.

I think it'd be a very interesting setting if you really gave it the feel of WWII but kept it medieval fantasy. When I say that, I mean you should have all of the elements of the war -- explosions, trenches, even "submarines" (sea-serpents?) -- and then go fantasy. I think this setting has the potential to be pretty cool, but I think it's also something that would first have to be over the top, then brought back down to a realistic point.

Trench warfare sort of ended with the First World War. By the time of the Second World War, mobile, hard-hitting forces, last seen as cavalry, had made a comeback in the form of tanks. German Blitzkrieg let them use tanks to break stalemates in a way that couldn't be done in WWI.

But more on-topic:

Sounds good. An idea that comes to mind is the idea of a "glorious victory". In D&D, combat doesn't tend to be very grim, on the grounds that its not real. If you played up the glory of the war in propaganda, then made it quite dark at the front lines, you'd get the feel of that kind of idea, although that would be WWI than II.

Bombing could be fun, going for the more WWII angle.

[Elven Doritos]

- Despite the precedent of Brest-Litovsk, the Allies end up with a treaty that, while far from perfect, was not the harsh control-measure that the Germans would have demanded had they one. (Brest-Litovsk as a precedent.)

Still, that is the most generous description of the Treaty of Versailles I have ever heard.

[Ra-Tiel]

Just to chime in: why not mix it up a little with Shadowrun? Perhaps in the middle of the war some side or another accidentally releases a biological weapon that has unforseen consequences. Instead of killing the enemy (or one's own populace, depending on the weather), those infected go through a horrible transformation and becoming what we know as elves and halflings.

A few weeks later, the virus mutates and starts spreading uncontrolled through all continents, infecting many while leaving others untouched. This creates dwarves and half-orcs.

Never having been confronted with such a horrible situation, the war parties call for a cease-fire. Now, several years after the war, new nations based on races instead of nationality start to form. And with some new races, old ideaologies seem to be very popular...

[Epic Meepo]

- Despite the precedent of Brest-Litovsk, the Allies end up with a treaty that, while far from perfect, was not the harsh control-measure that the Germans would have demanded had they one. (Brest-Litovsk as a precedent.)

Still, that is the most generous description of the Treaty of Versailles I have ever heard.

Agreed. The Treaty of Versailles was a pretty harsh control-measure if you ask me. Not Brest-Litovsk harsh, but still fairly harsh.

People like to argue that Germany was the bad guy in WWI just because Germany really was the bad guy in WWII. But in the First World War, pretty much everyone was to blame and pretty much everyone did nasty stuff to their enemies. Everyone was too proud to back down at first and too bitter not to grind the other guy into the dirt later on.

If there were any real villains in WWI, it was The Black Hand, the secret society of assassins who decided they would try to create a Slavic state by systematically murdering aristocrats in Austria-Hungary. By assassinating Archduke Ferdinand, they provoked the whole Great War. Germany would never have been in a position to be an aggressor if not for their actions.

Incidentally, any D&D campaign based on WWII might want to also draw upon WWI, because if ever there was a real-world organization that would make a perfect D&D villain, it was The Black Hand. They were called The Black Hand, they were a secret society, their self-proclaimed objective was widespread assassination, and their symbol was a skull and crossbones. What more do you need in a D&D villain?

[Zafuel]

- Despite the precedent of Brest-Litovsk, the Allies end up with a treaty that, while far from perfect, was not the harsh control-measure that the Germans would have demanded had they one. (Brest-Litovsk as a precedent.)

Still, that is the most generous description of the Treaty of Versailles I have ever heard.

Agreed. The Treaty of Versailles was a pretty harsh control-measure if you ask me. Not Brest-Litovsk harsh, but still fairly harsh.

True enough. I wasn't meaning that Germany was "evil", but the Central Powers  did strike first. And yes, Versailles was harsh, and poorly written, but with Brest-Litovsk as a precedent...

People like to argue that Germany was the bad guy in WWI just because Germany really was the bad guy in WWII. But in the First World War, pretty much everyone was to blame and pretty much everyone did nasty stuff to their enemies. Everyone was too proud to back down at first and too bitter not to grind the other guy into the dirt later on.

are[/i] they going to get it right?




Anyway, I can't help thinking that WWI would make for a better campaign than WWII. Trench warfare, mass slaughter, and no real right and wrong would allow for a lot of open-ended -ness and unique fights. If you went with the whole "incompetent buffon" general myth, it could make for some great adventuring moments. Magical artilery, etc

[sparkletwist]

Of course, it should also be pointed out that WWII loses a lot of moral clarity on the eastern front. :)

The alliance with Stalin was entirely one of convenience and mutual benefit, rather than any sort of shared democratic values between him and the US, UK, France, etc.