Celtricia, World of Factions-posting thread

[LordVreeg]

Please post all current questions and comments about the Celtrician threads and PBwiki here.
Crunch Thread
Setting Thread

[Tybalt]

Congratulations on your new start. I think that you are definitely getting an edge on organizing and presenting your ideas for your game, and ideally the discussions and suggestions will help you refine things.

[sparkletwist]

Oh, the stream of consciousness disaster is being tamed  :yumm:

Nice :)

[Wensleydale]

Oooh, I'm LIKING this. The monstrous races are intelligent, equally or even more so than the common races, and have been rejected because of the way they look? This is good - it gets a bit sickening sometimes, not having anybody be stereotyped against WRONGLY (other than Drizzts, which are even worse). So, although they're quite commonly integrated into large cities, they're still despised and murdered in small villages?

I also want to hear more about the Collegium Arcana. I assume they're extremely powerful, and span multiple nations... but are there any nations they won't serve, or favour? Or are they more like impartial arms dealers?

[LordVreeg]

Oooh, I'm LIKING this. The monstrous races are intelligent, equally or even more so than the common races, and have been rejected because of the way they look? This is good - it gets a bit sickening sometimes, not having anybody be stereotyped against WRONGLY (other than Drizzts, which are even worse). So, although they're quite commonly integrated into large cities, they're still despised and murdered in small villages?

I also want to hear more about the Collegium Arcana. I assume they're extremely powerful, and span multiple nations... but are there any nations they won't serve, or favour? Or are they more like impartial arms dealers?

Hmm.  I was going to post Examples of larger guilds that have great influence...and I was going to start here.  Luckily I can cut and paste this right in.

The Collegium Arcana did not, contrary to the official position of that group; begin cleanly with a single origination point. Back in the Middle Celtrician Interregnum, Many countries had some variation of an official mage's guild. They did come together into a few different groups, but contrary to the Guild's official stance, they have not been one unified group for 2100 years.

Currently, however, they do enjoy a position that only a few Churches can claim, and without the competition. The Collegium Arcana has offices in every major city In Northern Celtricia, as well as in most towns. They have a seat in the government of Orbi, a council seat in the Theocracy of Gorntar, and a council seat in the Grey March, as well. They control commerce in many areas, and are wealthy beyond the reach of kings.

Players who join up with this group will never be in need of finding aid in any civilized location. And the guild rewards loyalty, though it does not accept split loyalties.  They can be found everywhere, and because of the cash they bring in, and their general attitude that they don't care about the local politcs.  (not the truth, but people believe it)

The Central office of the Collegium has been in Orbi for over 150 years (back in 739 RON). Archmage Hier Effen moved it from the ancient quarters in Stenron at the invitation of The Arcanic Table of Orbi. There had been a Guild of Magic in the Stenron location long before the Interegnum, so this move was historic.  But moving it to a mageocracy just made sense...So do they favor anyone?  They are allied very, very closely with the Arcanic Table, which is the governing Body of Orbi.

There are also many different divisions in the Guild of Mages. There are research divisions, combat divisions, political divisions, as well as different Orders ,such as the Order of Flame, the Order of Water, and more like that.

Every guild locality has a Head Warlock, who runs it. The bigger the populaltion center, the more prestigeous the appointment. Think of them almost as fiefdoms of a secret kingdom, with the HeshianTower as the Capitol. Larger guilds also come with the headache of having Ambassador postings, sub-nantional and national level postings that were originally in place to smooth the bumps and make friends with the local governments, while the the Head Warlock runs the show. Every Head Warlock knows, however, that they are also their to send back reports to the HeshianTower.

Complicating this are the sperate Orders within the Collegium Arcana, like the Order of Water, and the Order of Flame. These are almost fraternities, and since they are usually joined early in a mages career, you see some nepotism here. there is a lot of the 'Good Old Boys' netwrok currently in the Collegium Arcana

Approximately thirty percent of the Collegium's membership is 'homegrown'. The guild's mission to find talented children and take them in to give them a comfortable life befitting their talent (and fostering fanatical loyalty) is one of the three precepts of the Collegium. These 'homegrown' members tend to give their entire lives to the cause.

Teens or adults who join the guild later need to be sponsored, and the sponoring member is responsible for them for a full cycle, but also gains bonusses based on how their sponsored fledglings perform later in their career.

Everyone except the domestics in a particular local tower will be a guildmember. The do not hire mercenaries, rather, they depend on recruits within their own guild to learn the rudimets of combat and the Swords Arcanic is a prestigeous group within the guild.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Orcs and Hobyt's outnumber everyone.  And there are conspiracy theories that Hobyt's actually run everything...But it's the Gartier (bugbears) that really get it.  Big, furry, and sarcastic as hell, no one can get chased out of a small town like a bugbear. People are already scared of it, and then it starts mouthing off about the quality of the school system and the inbred nature of the locals.

[Tybalt]

I have a question. You particularly have mentioned 'civilized' bugbears more than once, usually as it seems acting as mercenaries. Is there a reason why they in particular are used as examples?

Also, I have the impression that your world is very very civilized--that there is not a lot of wilderness that the pcs are likely to encounter. If anything it seems to resemble the world of say medieval Greece/the southern Balkans more than Western and Northern Europe. Is that true?

[LordVreeg]

I have a question. You particularly have mentioned 'civilized' bugbears more than once, usually as it seems acting as mercenaries. Is there a reason why they in particular are used as examples?

Also, I have the impression that your world is very very civilized--that there is not a lot of wilderness that the pcs are likely to encounter. If anything it seems to resemble the world of say medieval Greece/the southern Balkans more than Western and Northern Europe. Is that true?

Tybalt, as always good questions.  This set is really useful, as they show me where I have to change some things because I am giving an untrue impression of the world.  I'm going to answer the territory question first, as it affects the bugbear question.
I think that by pushing the impression of the hurley-burley urban experiences, I have ignored how actually underpopulated Celtricia is.  igbar is the Capital of Trabler, with barely twenty-five thousand inhabitants.  Igbar has Igtiche, a farming village a day to the north east, Ocodig 3-4 dayss to the noerth, on the Recum Road, and Zereth and Wallington, both 4-5 days south on the recum road.  But the areas in between are wild.  In the Wibble hills, between Igbar and Ocodig, The Firehazer Humanoid Tribe has large (1500 warriors+) settlements, and to the North of Igtiche, there are the Plains of Vernidale, the Herb lands (and tons of Astrikon ruins) and the Astrikon forest.  In the southern eaves of the Astrikon forest dwell the Tribe of Southern Zyjmanese Ogrillite tribes, mainly Orcash, Ograk, and Gartier (400+ fighting troops).  So your Balkan analogy is very, very true, If you imagine a thriving, vibrant authority that 'rules' an area, but whole tribes of people within them, some peacful, some openly antagonsitic to the 'supposed' authority.
More, in Eastern Trabler you can ride for days without seeing anything but humanoid Tribal groups, and up in the Grey March, the whole Western coast is barren of 'civilization'.  Miston used to be the mid point between the Budding Grey MArch and the Coastal Venolvians; now it is the north-western tip of the country.  (and yes, the operative oppositional terms here are 'Tribal vs. Civilized')

The Gartier question is a very complicated one.  Of all the Ogrillite families, the Gartier are the most difficult to grasp and the most tortured.  When created in the beginning of the Age of Heroes by Anthraxus, they were bred to lead.  For thousands of years, almost every humanoid tribal band has been either led by a bugbear or bugbears, or they were the brains behind it.  When asked about their near worship of irony and sarcasm, they often reply with a variation of, "You spend hundreds of generations trying to tell every bloody goblin and gnoll which hand is for eating and which is for ass-wiping, and unsuccesfully mind you, you'd be a little jaded too".  Strong, smart, and hardy, they were the perfect captains and generals for the other ogrillites...except they were too smart, and too clever, and for generations they looked in at the civilized world, and hated it for not being able to be part of it.  Every gaertier for thousands of years has, internally and mainly subconsiously, despised themselves for being a barbarian and being outside civilization.  The gartier hatred of culture and civilization was not the orcash or ograk mindless hatred whipped by priests and zealots, it was the deeper mirror of hating what they could not have but knew they were worthy of.
So, to understand the civilized gartier, on the surface all self-reliant and sarcastic, you have to take what was has been passed on from parent to child for years about how soft and unworthy the civilization of towns and cities is and what they have perached to their near-idiot followers, and add that to a near 75 years, just over one lifetime, of being allowed to partake in this civilization, and stir in the very-prevalent racism and prejudice of beings generally weaker and stupider than yourselves.  Then add in all the tribal gartiers sneering at you for 'going soft' and 'being a hobyt-lover'...now maybe you can understand a tiny bit of the Gartier mentality.  On a good day, they hate the rest of the world more than they hate themselves.
To circle back to the question about their mercenary appearance, I think it is that very solitary nature you are seeing.  Julian, The Horn-minister in Waiting in Igbar, has actually taken it under advisement secretly to create a situation that would speed the acceptance of the gartier, due to the possible benefit and also the posible backlash.  
 
[ooc=Thanks]
Special thanks to you and these great questions: I will take these and go update the opening page and the racial page to take advanatge of what is clearly an area I need to improve.[/ooc]

[Tybalt]

Good example use for the rules--this is what you need as a GM, to see how the system would actually function with skills resolution in a scene. So how would this appear as on a screen if you were to present it so? What I would want to do for instance with your wiki is print out a combat page and a skills resolution page so I could have an easy reference guide. One of the difficulties with a system like yours is that it is somewhat complex given that there are no classes. Since it is really a simple system of equations though I'm curious about how you would do a 'cheat sheet' for say your current party and their opponents.

Also, nice list of references for who worships what deity. I like that you have rather specific craft oriented ones as well as ones for general social types and covering large areas of life and death too.

[Raelifin]

Alright! I finally found some time to do some reading/reviewing, and as promised, Celtricia is at the top of my list. As a warning, I tend to be very critical and honest, so if you have hard time hearing my criticism, please ignore it. For this readthrough, I had a notepad doc open where I jotted down my thoughts as I read. I'll include this as my review, but if you have a hard time understanding me, please say so and I'll clarify. Take note that some of the notes at the top were written before reading the entire post (I feel that they're still important though, as they show a step-by-step thoughts of a reader.) Please feel free to disagree with all of my points and say so! I always enjoy a good debate. ;)

[spoiler My thoughts]"There is a current philosophical view that intregration is a determinant of culture, making race less and less important to the 'modern' celtrician, but this is in contrast to the tribal humanoid societies of the uninhabited lands. All this at the same time as war with the Huge and ambiteous Empire of Argus threatens the countries of the Stenronian Alliance. In the first few years of playing, that flame lit and the Igbarian area became near the front lines."

Awkward and confusing. I usually avoid namedropping in intros, and the overall structure of the paragraph could use some fixing.


I like your map, but the wave lines, to me, are confusing. I'd suggest removing them and adding "coastal ripples" for increased clarity.


Kudos for having a unique name for each race, even if they aren't totally unique in concept. I dislike Orcash and Hobyt, but I doubt you're going to be changing names this late.
 * After reading more, I'm disappointed to find that goblins and gnolls keep their old names.
 * And after reading yet more, I apparently overlooked the gnomes for several posts.


I like how you start with some basics, but I'm finding very little interesting material past the first post. (Note that this is all personal preference) Timelines are uninteresting. Meta-information about the settings IRL history is uninteresting. Crunch is uninteresting (and belongs in the crunch thread). I want to know about Worship and gods directly after the first post.


What is the origin of the 'Pact Veritus'?


"Gods have different aspects, as they are large, old and complex beings, beyond the ken of the Iesuicua (White Omwo~ for 'Earthbound')."

is confusing. I suggest changing it to:

"Gods are large, old and complex beings, beyond understanding of the 'Iesuicua' (roughly translated as "Mortal" from the tongue of White Omwo~) and as such, they have different aspects."


I notice that I'm frustrated about how much the narration seems to "jump around" in the divinity post. You introduce Madrak and Hewecar and promptly ditch them. Grazzt isn't even introduced. Have you tried outlining your posts?


"Drono Bidlebee took a seedling from the Stenron PLatrform of Harvest, where they have a huge, old second generation Asslewood tree in the center of the Platform (Asslewood trees are actually from the House of Earth, and even second generation (slightly debased) Asslewood is extremely rare, wonderful and valuable) to the Miston Platform of the Harvest, but it was his idea. It was not a GM setup, or even on my radar. But he knew that it would be tremendously meaningful to the Amristians of Miston."

I am perplexed by this paragraph. Please help.


"Grazzt certainly has a noble side in Celtricia, and Abradaxus has an absoluteness of justice that borders on the cruel."

This is just another instance of namedropping. At the time of reading, this is totally meaningless. In order to turn an idea of a god on its head, you need to first introduce the gods.


"Also important in understanding the cosmology is understanding the different power sources in the void, which is also where the Celestial PLanars all hang out, since the Accords of Presence. Daemons live on the House of Death, Devils on the Ninth House, Demons on the Eight House. Spells that use chaos actually pull actually pull from the Well of Chaos on the Eight house. There is a House of Earth and a House of Water, but the House of Fire is no longer, and the Well of Fire was recreated on the Third Station in the Void, but it is still weaker than the original Well on the House of Fire that is no longer."

This makes no sense--yet again. I'd suggest moving it to after the section on cosmology.


"There are dozens of major Deities, and probably close to a hundred minor deities in current worship."

Ick. Just as an aside: why did you decide to make the world this way?


How do you pronounce Omwo~?


And on second thought, you may want to move some of the history you have in the "Cosmology" section to the top of the post and take the time to actually explain what the 9th station and 8th house actually are.


Waaaay too much name dropping in the race intro.


"Human PC variations
01-40 Mixed human
42-52 Southern Human
53-59 Gwynellian Human
60-76 Omnian Human
77-85 Delvan Human
86-96 Grey march Human
97-00 Gesana Human"

ICK! Keep random tables out of my fluff thread please. :P


Okay, so seeing as I skipped the Igbar stuff (I don't want to get into specific cities, even campaign-centers) I reached the end of the thread with little idea of what the world is actually like. How do the gods interact with mortals? Why have their avatars not set things straight regarding conflicts between worshipers?

What is magic like and where does it come from?
What are the major political movements of the world?
What conflicts are key?
Have there been any major wars? I don't remember reading about any?

If you really think I should read the wiki I will, but I much prefer the linear format of a thread.

At first glance, I though Celtricia would be a really interesting world, but I'm turned off by the presentation and lack of interesting and original ideas. I'd really like to hear you prove to me that Celtricia is a great setting--and then I think you should put it in the first post. I have yet to be sold.
[/spoiler]
Once again, please try not to take my words the wrong way. I'm the gadfly of athen--the CBG, and I'm just trying to  bring an improvement of things through picking them apart. No hard feelings.

 - Raelifin  

[beejazz]

The stuff about damage and armor is both extremely interesting to me (given the stated goal) and extremely confusing to me (ranges? dividers?)

Please elaborate!

[LordVreeg]

Raelifin,
Critical is good.  My thread is full of dums from my wikisite, and so your outside, critical analysis is great to have.  Honestly, when something reads poorly to you from the thread, It probably came right from the wikisite, and I really appreciate the help.  Sometimes, I think that in my haste to 'get stuff up', I take the old notes and such, and I should rework them more.
Especially since your name is on it.

The divinity post is one of the worst offenders of this.  I have to agree, after rereading it.  Your thoughful critique hear will not go unnoticed.  I'll change the wikisite, and then the thread.
In introducing the gods, I tried to avoid the normal listing of deities and spheres, as it has a little less relevance.  But I can see I should have done so, albiet in my own way.
[blockquote=Raelifin]
What is the origin of the 'Pact Veritus'?[/blockquote]  The Pact veritus was written and created by Manwessa, first priestess of the Church of the Whole (Oronath).  It is a pact betweeen churches that worshippers will not be discriminated against due to their beliefs, and will not suffer retribution from a church if they start worshipping at another location.
You may not like the polydeistic nature (sometimes it drives me crazy, too), but the 'Pact Veritus' is a response to worshippers paying their respects on a church based on where they are in their life.  A character may have been going ot the Church of Change (Jubilex) their whole life, but if they start a family, the Church of the Green Mother (Vernidale) is where he might start worshipping while his wife is pregnant.  The Pact Veritus was created to reduce friction between parishes.  In play, it does not totally stop retribution and human jealousies, but it reduces them.

   [blockquote=Raelifin]Ick. Just as an aside: why did you decide to make the world this way?[/blockquote]  That just cracked me up.  Ick?  
Why did I decide to make the cosmology this way?  A few reasons.  Metagaming wise, I always compared the way many pantheons were really worshipped versus how they were presented in various D&D games.  The greeks and norse would not recognize them, in most cases.  
The three major ages of the history can be divided into when the Gods walked the earth, when the Gods tried to influence things heavily through specific agents, and the current age where Gods try to affect things through groups of people.  This allowed me to create a setting where it was clear that humans, and human foibles, greatly color the religious landscape.
In practice, it makes for a very rich world, especially in a setting where factional competition is at the heart of the setting premise.  But, it is not for everyone...especially if put together in such a disjointed fashion. :D

[blockquote=Raelifin]How do you pronounce Omwo~?[/blockquote]  The tilde at the end signifies 2 or three of the same letter in pronunciation, so 'Om-woo'

[blockquote=Raelifin]Okay, so seeing as I skipped the Igbar stuff (I don't want to get into specific cities, even campaign-centers) I reached the end of the thread with little idea of what the world is actually like. How do the gods interact with mortals? Why have their avatars not set things straight regarding conflicts between worshipers?[/blockquote]  Great, ignore the good stuff...
What avatars...?  I think one thing you have shown me is that I wrote a lot of this (or wrote, cut, pasted, wrote, pasted, to be more exact) from a non-game perspective, and that other gamers are looking for certain benchmarks to understand differences.  

I answered some of the magic stuff under the Q&A post, but I also think that if you did not see it, it was because of the format and lack of clarity.  There is also a piece in that post that directly goes over the conflicts, but again, it is obviously not clear or does not stand out if you have to ask.

[blockquote-Raelifin]At first glance, I though Celtricia would be a really interesting world, but I'm turned off by the presentation and lack of interesting and original ideas. I'd really like to hear you prove to me that Celtricia is a great setting--and then I think you should put it in the first post. I have yet to be sold.[/blockquote]  It should be interesting, and the dullness must actually be tracded back to the presentation.  Truthfully, I am lucky to be in a position where I have a waiting list if players drop out, in 2 groups and an online one.  But as such, I must thank you for the helpful feedback.  I think I might need to spend more time on how it is played and how it feels.

[Raelifin]

My question now is: "Why did the other churches allow the Pact Veritus? Wouldn't it damage the idea of their church being the 'truth?'"


And as to avatars:
[quote Vreegy]For there is no doubt that the gods are real. Too often have their avatars made plain their opinions, too often do they nudge events, too plainly do they bicker, and sometime, too obvious are their favorites.[/quote]earth.[/i]

[LordVreeg]

The stuff about damage and armor is both extremely interesting to me (given the stated goal) and extremely confusing to me (ranges? dividers?)

Please elaborate!

Firstoff, can I tell you I do a lot of this at work, between clients?  I am going to create a new skill in my setting, 'repair disjointed post'.

Not surprised to see you asking this, as you like playing with the systems.  And I did create the system based on the needs of the setting, so when people ask to avoid the crunch, I think they might have more trouble appreciating some of the big picture.

When my players and I first started thingking about this, I literally asked what kind of issues they had with the D&D systems.  And while there were a lot of fullscale changes made with magic and a skill-based setting, the players biggest bitches came about the lethality of the setting and player progression/longevity.  Obviously, since some of the players have been running characters for twenty five years, that longevity has been important.
Some examples we came up with (and I can't believe I still remember these) were that the amount of HP gained, and the lack of lethality from deadly weapons from that very quickly in most games, the real damage casued by giant-sized creatures,and the affect on armor on protection versus avoidance.

So after looking at everything, we first separated armor and protection, which is now called DR.  But there just wasn't enough of a difference in the protection values.

So, first off, we made HP a skill.  A better health does not give you more HP, it makes you gain experience in it faster.  without geting into that part, a beginning fighter may have 10-14 hp, a PC fighter that has played 12-15 session might have 18-24 HP, and that same PC might have 30-35 hp after 30+ sessions.  Low HP world. A basic Ogre(rank 1-3) will have
24-36 hp, a basic Hill Giant (rank 1-3) will have 45-60 HP.
( I make those comparisons as sized creatures have a huge impact, no pun intended, in my world.  There are no PC's that can take as much physical punishment as even a lesser giant so far.)

Now, to affect more lethality for weapons and to allow for protective value of armor, we spent days and days playing with various permutaions of damages.  Having a dagger do 1-4 or 2-5 damage meant that we didn't want armor to protect more than that amount.  We didn't wanmt to say that a skillful dagger user could not damage a guy wearing significant armor.  Let alone a sabre not being able to get through armors.
http://celtricia.pbwiki.com/Weapon+types?full_access=ykSciyNGwN&l=S] weapon list
So I finally realized that my problem was the dreaded bell curve.  So to increase the lethality of weapons, and the amount of damage they might do, I increased the amounts of damage quite a bit, but threw in a dividing die.  The dividing die was based on the probability of lethality.
  A dagger has a 10 sided divider, meaning a 10% chance of doing 'armor piercing' damage, or a 20% chance of doing still decent damaege (a 2 divider is decent, after a 3 divider, it obviously drops a lot).

A sabre has a d8 divider, or a 12.5% chance of doing that armor piercing blow, or a 25% chance of doing decent damage.

A scimitar or a trident has a d6 dividing die, which has a 16.7% of getting a 1 divider, and a 33% chance of a 2.

A halbard or a great axe have a d5 divider, so 20% and 40%.  

(Strength, damage bonus skills and magic adds damage after the divider.  Large creatures use bigger variations with -1 on the divider, very large creatures, like dragons and Shadow demons have a d3 divider.  you don't get hit by a 12' broadaxe more than once, normally)

Ok, now as to damage amounts, an average dagger like a bank does 11-18/d10
that sabre, 13-22/d8
the scimitar 12-25/d6
and the halbard 19-31/d5.

(a Hill giant with an enlarged bhuj axe does 25-40/d4+9 for strength, as an example)


So, obviously, with low HP and all this damage potential, armors' protection comes into play hugely.  You do not wander into a serious combat with ths stupid idea you are going to dodge every strike.  With these numbers, an unarmored or low armored person will get badly injured or killed if hit by a few decent sword strikes, which makes sense, actually.

So armor comes into play.  Heavier armor makes you easier to hit, but protects.  Instead of different dividing dies, every protection amount is the value, minus 1-10, divided my the average of 2d6 (due to my players tendency to build armors from different suits by components).  It sounds complicated, but it becomes second nature.  And this gives me the kind of frequency distribultion I need.  

Hard leather and silk under adds 22% to being hit, but has a maximum protection of 22 points, and averages 5 protection, and has a minimum of 2 protection.

Chain Mail and silk under adds 41% to being hit, but has a maximum protection of 29, and averages almost 8 points, and has a minimum of 3 protection.

Splint armor and silk under adds 57% to being hit, but hasa  maximum protection of 46, and averages 12.5 points of protection, and has a minimum of 6.

page of armors.

smaller, faster weapons are also set up to get more attacks.  We use a continuous initiative system, so if a dagger has a 2 SF, and goes on segment 5, it rolls initiative from segment 5, and adds to their last initiative.

More later.  

[beejazz]

I'm getting the dividing die on weapon damage and actually really liking it.

I'm still not totally there on the armor (it does sound complicated... but I'm sure it makes sense).

So... could I get maybe just a sample round style breakdown?

Person A rolls x and y meaning z. Person B rolls l and m meaning n. Or what have you.

As a matter of personal preference, I'm not a huge fan of rolling armor. But I am a huge fan of bell curves, as they can give a wide range of possibilities while keeping the norm most likely outcome (like you say... a dagger that can do something against a guy in full plate but usually won't).

[Tybalt]

I'm curious about how you are going to answer Raelfin's response.

Here's another approach to bejazz's as well...let's say I'm playing my diplomat/assassin character; I have a short sword and I go to stab a guy in the back while he thinks he's laying in wait for me in an alley. How many dice do I need to resolve this encounter, and in what order to I roll for stuff?