My Armor as DR system

[~Kalin~]

First of i should mention that i intend to use this system im my campaign setting, which uses
* skills in place of BAB, and saving throws.
* A combat defense system in place of AC.

||___ARMOR___||   

[table=Armor as DR]
[tr][th]Armor[/th][th]Bludgeoning DR[/th][th]Piercing DR[/th][th]Slashing DR[/th][th]Armor Check Penalty[/th][/tr]
[tr][td]Padded[/td][td]2[/td][td]3[/td][td]2[/td][td]+0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Leather[/td][td]0[/td][td]2[/td][td]4[/td][td]+0[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Studded Leather[/td][td]1[/td][td]2[/td][td]5[/td][td]-1[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Chain Shirt[/td][td]3[/td][td]2[/td][td]4[/td][td]-2[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]Hide[/td][/td][td]3[/td][td]7[/td][td]5[/td][td]-3[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Scale Mail[/td][/td][td]7[/td][td]3[/td][td]4[/td][td]-4[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Chain Mail[/td][/td][td]6[/td][td]4[/td][td]4[/td][td]-5[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Breastplate[/td][/td][td]8[/td][td]4[/td][td]4[/td][td]-4[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]Splint Mail[/td][/td][td]7[/td][td]4[/td][td]10[/td][td]-7[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Banded Mail[/td][/td][td]10[/td][td]5[/td][td]6[/td][td]-6[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Half-Plate[/td][/td][td]7[/td][td]5[/td][td]11[/td][td]-7[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Full-Plate[/td][/td][td]8[/td][td]6[/td][td]12[/td][td]-6[/td][/tr]
[/table]

Damage Resistance: or DR is the ability to ignore specific types of damage dealt by a specific source, each time it would be dealt. Damage Resistance is usually gained from any armor a character wears or from any natural damage resistance a character possesses, however it does not matter how a character receives this Damage Resistance, only that each source of damage resistance is different. The following types of damage can be resisted: Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing, Fire, Electricity, Cold, Sonic and Desiccation. These resistances do not have any affect on any saving throws that might be associated with an attack, and multiple sources of resistance from different sources stack with each other.

||___Combat Defenses___||
When you are attacked, you can designate one combat defense to be applied to each attack made against you by an opponent. You may never designate two different defenses against the same attack (Eg: trying to parry a blow after you failed dodging it); except Armor Defense is always applied to all attacks as a fallback option.

'¢Armor Defense: Is allowing your armor to absorb a specific amount and type of damage that is applied to all damage rolls made against you. And is equal to the Damage Resistance (DR) for each specific armor (see table:?-?). This is the only defense that is applied to all incoming attacks.
'¢Block Defense: Is allowing your shield to block an incoming attack, your total Block Defense is equal to 1d20 + Close Combat Skill + Shield bonus which is then used against an opponents attack roll; If you exceed an opponents attack roll against you, you succeed in blocking the incoming attack with your shield. You may attempt to block a number of attacks equal to half the number of Close Combat Ranks per encounter; each block attempt uses one Block Defense. You must possess a shield to use this Defense.
'¢Dodge Defense: Is the ability to dodge an incoming attack. And is equal to 1d20 + Reflex Skill, with a -2 penalty to each dodge attempt after the first, if you exceed an opponents attack roll against you,  you succeed in dodging the incoming attack. You may attempt to dodge a number of attacks equal to the number of ranks in your Reflex Skill per encounter; each dodge attempt uses one Dodge Defense.
'¢Parry Defense: Is equal to your 1d20 + Close Combat Skill + deflection modifier with the current weapon, which is use as an opposed roll against the opponents attack roll, if you exceed an opponents attack roll against you, you succeed in parrying the incoming attack with your weapon. You may attempt to parry a number of attacks equal to half the number of Close Combat Ranks per encounter; each parry attempt uses one Parry Defense.


So what do you think? Got any observations or critisisms? please share them.

[LordVreeg]

Well, I like it.
I went to a less strategic version with avoid/protect decades ago, but I like your 'choice-based' system, with the character trying to slip the blow, parry the blow, block the blow, or use your armor to it's potential.  I certainly like the interactive nature of it, and they way it feeds different fighting styles.
Some of the things that came up heavily for my creative team I need to ask you about.  These are issues that every GM who separates protection from avoidance goes through.  And I did that first even before my Celtricia campaign.

The first is the 'either/or' nature of the system. It looks like you either dodge or use your armor.  I felt that armor was used, at least in part, to offer some protection against the blows that get through, especially in a real melee.  Protection and design on many armors were heavier on the non-shield side, becasue they knew more would 'get through' on that side.  I allow block, dodge, parry, but protection is it's own animal.  
I'm not saying dump what you are doing; but I would allow a % of protection from the armor regardless of what type of defence choice is made, say 1/3 or 1/4.

Secondly, what type of damage system are you using?  What chance does a sabre armed swordsman have of getting through the DR of a guy with half-plate, if the sabre guy is completely average?

Third, Is your's a low HP setting?  That helps get a feel for the affect of DR.  I run a high damage, Low HP setting, where the highest HP for a PC is 36, and size large creatures average 25 hits of damage per attack. So, Armor is the be-all and end all of my system.  Soft-shelled players (as they are called by the Blue Turtles Samurai) that go into real combat die.  

You seem to have a number of dodge attempts per encounter listed below, as opposed to in a set amount of times. SO it sounds like you can 'run out of' dodges.  Am I right?

ANyway, I like what you are doing.  

[~Kalin~]

Protection and design on many armors were heavier on the non-shield side, becasue they knew more would 'get through' on that side.  I allow block, dodge, parry, but protection is it's own animal.  
I'm not saying dump what you are doing; but I would allow a % of protection from the armor regardless of what type of defence choice is made, say 1/3 or 1/4.

Third, Is your's a low HP setting?  That helps get a feel for the affect of DR.  I run a high damage, Low HP setting, where the highest HP for a PC is 36, and size large creatures average 25 hits of damage per attack. So, Armor is the be-all and end all of my system.  Soft-shelled players (as they are called by the Blue Turtles Samurai) that go into real combat die.  
[/quote]
ANyway, I like what you are doing.
[/quote]
Thanks

[Seraph]

I didn't pay much attention to this when it was first put out there, but I was recently thinking about guns and armor for Avayevnon, and I was beginning to think that it was starting to make much more mechanical sense for Armor to function as Damage Reduction rather than just an AC boost.  This system I really like, and is very similar to what I was wanting to do.  The only real difference between your proposed defense system and mine is that yours simplifies melee by having one close combat skill while mine had a separate melee attack and parry skill.  So in light of all this, I was wondering if you'd object to my stealing this for Avayevnon?

[Xeviat]

DR is difficult, if not impossible, to use in place of AC UNLESS you remove one of the variables. Either AC or damage will need to remain largely static for this to work.

In my Revised d20 Modern project, damage is going to remain fairly static throughout the game. Damage will only be increased slightly as the levels add up. HP goes up with level, but I will be using a WP/VP system so a crit will be as deadly at level 1 as it is at level 10. In this system, since damage will fall within a known range, DR is possible.

In 3E rules, damage has such a wide swing that this is less possible. It might be doable in a 4E system if it weren't for powers.

For instance, 2/- DR is comparable to +2 AC when you're taking 20 points of damage per hit (because your 2 AC and 2 DR would both reduce expected damage per round by 10%), but it is much less effective against a hit that deals 40 points of damage.

Additionally, I think having vastly different DRs for different damage types might be hard to follow. It might be easier to just give leather DR/slashing, chain DR/crushing, and plate DR/piercing (or something like that), and then have each armor also grant an amount of DR/-; this just causes less "paper work" and writing on character sheets and stat-blocks.

[Polycarp]

I always read DR Armor systems with interest, because I've always thought it a good idea that suffers somewhat on the implementation.  One important thing to consider that I don't think you've covered is "mixed" damage - for instance, from a spiked club, or a large creature's bite (which could easily be categorized as bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing together).

Additionally, it might be nice to have some sort of mechanism by which a character can use a weapon in a different way, perhaps with some sort of penalty.  A character with a spear fighting an opponent in Hide armor might naturally be tempted to wield it like a quarterstaff instead just for the different damage type.  What if a character wants to use, for instance, the flat of their blade?  I'm not great at balancing mechanics, but when faced with such a system your players are probably going to try ways to use it to their advantage, and you should be prepared for it.

[Nomadic]

You all do realize that the last time this person posted was October of 2007? I myself haven't seen them on since.

[Polycarp]

Haha, I didn't even notice the thread necromancy.

[Xeviat]

I always read DR Armor systems with interest, because I've always thought it a good idea that suffers somewhat on the implementation.  One important thing to consider that I don't think you've covered is "mixed" damage - for instance, from a spiked club, or a large creature's bite (which could easily be categorized as bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing together).

Additionally, it might be nice to have some sort of mechanism by which a character can use a weapon in a different way, perhaps with some sort of penalty.  A character with a spear fighting an opponent in Hide armor might naturally be tempted to wield it like a quarterstaff instead just for the different damage type.  What if a character wants to use, for instance, the flat of their blade?  I'm not great at balancing mechanics, but when faced with such a system your players are probably going to try ways to use it to their advantage, and you should be prepared for it.

Weapons like the morning star who have "and" damage types treat the damage as whatever type would be most beneficial in whatever situation.

I'd say taking a -4 penalty to wield a weapon to do a different damage type would be fine (like subdual damage), with a feat (requires weapon focus) to remove the penalty (making it, effectively, constant).

Hey, the OP isn't around, but the thread still has viable discussion potential.

[Polycarp]

Weapons like the morning star who have "and" damage types treat the damage as whatever type would be most beneficial in whatever situation.

every time[/i] (unless they have armor only vulnerable to slashing, and it's worth noting there's no such thing in the OP's list).

If that rule is to be kept, I think it's important to either make sure the differences between type DR are not huge (so multi-type weapons don't have an amazing advantage) and/or re-balance weapons so that a character must make a real tradeoff for a more versatile weapon.

[Nomadic]

Hey, the OP isn't around, but the thread still has viable discussion potential.

Indeed, my comment was more directed at the people who were throwing reviews the OPs way.

[Xeviat]

If that rule is to be kept, I think it's important to either make sure the differences between type DR are not huge (so multi-type weapons don't have an amazing advantage) and/or re-balance weapons so that a character must make a real tradeoff for a more versatile weapon.

Oh, I see what you were going for there. Then I would make the "and" damage type weapons, and maybe even the "or" damage type weapons "weaker", in effect adding the "and" category to weapon balance calculators since DR vs. various weapon damage types is more frequent.

Good call.

[Polycarp]

Oh, I see what you were going for there. Then I would make the "and" damage type weapons, and maybe even the "or" damage type weapons "weaker", in effect adding the "and" category to weapon balance calculators since DR vs. various weapon damage types is more frequent.

I'm not sure there is much of a practical difference between "and" and "or" in the system as I understand it.  Let's say your opponent is wearing armor that is weakest against piercing damage.  A character wielding a morningstar (bludgeoning AND piercing) automatically does piercing damage, as it is most advantageous to him.  A character wielding a halberd (slashing OR piercing) technically gets a choice of which damage type to deal, but it's not a very meaningful choice, because there's no reason to choose anything other than the best one for the job (piercing, in this case).  You might as well just assume the halberdier uses his most advantageous attack.

The only way this would be an important distinction is if the armor values were secret, so a character with an "or" weapon would have to guess which attack was best.  Assuming that information on armor DR is readily available to the players, however, there's really no point in making the distinction at all.

[Seraph]

Hey, the OP isn't around, but the thread still has viable discussion potential.

Indeed, my comment was more directed at the people who were throwing reviews the OPs way.

When I addressed the OP, I had checked his stats, and he had visited the site 2 days prior.  He may not have posted anything, but he had visited.  I figured this meant there was a chance he'd be back to see I'd posted in the thread.

On another note, what if "and" weapons, rather than deal whichever is most advantageous, split their damage between the two types of damage?  So if you roll an 8 for damage with a morning star, it does 4 bludgeoning and 4 piercing damage.  This actually might make "and" weapons worse at penetrating armor than weapons that deal a single type of damage, even if the armor has resistance to that kind of damage.

[Llum]

After looking over the first post, the system is pretty interesting. I like how you can choose which kind of defense your going to put up, block/dodge and stuff.

I'm not convinced the numbers of DR are perfect, but that's really a moot point without play testing.

The point that Polycarp! brings up is valid, when given the choice, it kinda defeats the purpose of the DR, for multi-type weapons. However personally I don't think you should be able to "choose" which damage happens, randomizing each hit would be a hassle though.