Some guy's rant on giant robots

[SDragon]

Sci-fi rant: Why giant mecha robots are stupid
Date: February 6th, 2008
Author: Jay Garmon
Category: Geekend, Science Fiction, Television, Video Games, Movies, Gaming, Futurism, Science, Gadgets
Tags: Leg, Robots, Emerging Technologies, Jay Garmon

Admit it, you love giant robots. Call them mecha, Gundam, super robots, battlemechs, or whatever'"you love them. I love them. Everyone loves them. Ultraman. MechaGodzilla. Gigantor. Voltron. The other Voltron. Tranzor Z. Each of these franchises has found international acclaim and nourished the battlebot desires of millions of fans'"some of whom forget exactly how fictional these sci-fi superdroids really are.

The next person who says 'I can't wait until the Army develops real mecha' gets a boot to the head, because in real life, mecha are actually really stupid. Here's why:

Bipedal robots are stupid
Pretty much since the dawn of robotics, we've been trying to find a way to make robots walk on two legs. Not because anybody needs robots to walk on two legs, but just to prove it can be done. And while it is possible now, with millions of dollars of technology and advanced software, it still can't be done well. Try and get Asimo to walk up stairs or, you know, move quickly and you get the picture. Bipedal locomotion is hard. That's why it's rare in nature.

Compare the number of two-legged creatures to those sporting four, six, or eight legs and you'll realize that bipedal is a gross minority position, for a variety of reasons. Four legs is a minimal base for stability'"just ask any table. You could get by with three legs, but you you abandon bilateral symmetry, which virtually every creature on Earth has, and you also give up some basic redundancy. A four-legged creature can get by on three legs in a pinch, but a biped isn't going far hopping on one foot. Also, being bipedal means that any rest state requires a change in position'"you can't sleep standing up. Thus, if a bipedal mecha were to lose power'"or just be turned off'"it would at best be left in a vulnerable state that was easy to push over, and at worst would collapse into a heap of mangled, unconscious robot wreckage. Sure, mecha are as tall as skyscrapers, but they don't have that handy bolted-to-the-ground thing to keep them from toppling in a swift wind. (Even with quadrupeds, stability can be an issue if you don't set up a low center of gravity. Case in point: AT-ATs.)

Biologically, most bipeds started out as quadrupeds and gave up the forelegs (and four legs) to convert them into some more specialized appendage'"say, a wing or a grasping, tool-using hand. When you can flat-out design a function-specific battlebot, you don't need to make these kinds of zero-sum tradeoffs. Which brings up another point'¦

Robot hands are stupid
The whole point of a hand is to grasp tools and objects. That's what it's for. Now, if you're a giant robot, what exactly are you grasping, apart from the giant energy sword that exists solely to justify the creation of your giant hands? Again, when you're custom-building a combat robot, you don't have to make a generic interface like a hand, you can just weld the energy blades, rocket launchers, laser cannons and whatnot right onto the frakkin' robot where they can't be dropped.

Sure, you can pick up some cars and hurl them for sport, but that's hardly an efficient use of resources. And there are better climbing implements than human-style fingers and thumbs'"setting aside the fact that there's almost nothing out there with the structural integrity to handle the weight of a mecha trying to climb it. Also, a lion's mouth for a hand is cool looking but hideously impractical. Then again, so are flying robot lions.

Giant robots are stupid
What, exactly, is the point of being the size of the Chrysler Building, unless your job is to fight the Chrysler Building? (Please don't, the American auto industry has enough problems.) If Godzilla shows up, I might spot you the on-a-lark tactic of meeting the radioactive reptile with an equal-scale automated countermeasure, especially if conventional weaponry has failed and King Kong is busy filming a sequel with Peter Jackson. But since reality is tragically short on kaiju city-wreckers, what's the point?

Most mecha are depicted as military weapons, but not even armed navies like to build things any bigger than they have to. Aircraft carriers are a quarter-mile long because it's a necessary length to land and launch planes. Everything else about their scale flows from that design constraint. Most every classic naval battleship has been retired because speed, agility, and coordinated attack'"the kind that GPS, computerized communications, and precision-targeted ordnance make possible'"are prized over bulk tonnage. We'd rather have a swarm of destroyers and fast-attack boats than one big dreadnought, if only to avoid the issue of making a big giant target. Same goes for robot warriors.

Basically, giant humanoid military mechas are stupid
All of the above sets aside the fact that (at least according to Wired) it would cost $725 million just to build a basic mecha from existing tech, and that doesn't even include any of the cool super weapons'"or, for that matter, the actual development, design, and systems integration costs needed to build a super robot from off-the-shelf parts.

This is not to say that uber-bots will never exist, just that they won't look anything like a Gundam.

In a general sense, legs are better than wheels or even treads when it comes to dealing with uneven terrain and extreme grades. Legs don't need flat surfaces with minimal obstacles, so a quadrupedal (or better) robot is actually an advantage in many situations. Like, say, other planets that haven't seen much civilization. Thus, we're likely to see walking robots in the future'"on four or more legs. (For all the film's remaining idiocy, the AMEE droid from Red Planet is actually a pretty clever and workable take on what an explorer robot would look like.)

We may also see large-scale robots in the future as the technology becomes available to automate'"and make autonomous'"large industrial equipment. Robot cranes, trucks, excavators and loggers are very likely on the horizon. Just make sure they're programmed not to squish the environmental protesters they encounter (unless the protesters start building androids to replace their numbers, too).

Humanoid robots also have a role to play'"in places where they will operate in shared environments with humans. Every building on Earth is designed by and for humans, so rather than redesign every edifice on the planet to accommodate our new cybernetic overlords, simply make the robots human-like, so they can walk up stairs, open doors and operate human-friendly equipment with us.

Finally, we already have military robots'"they've been around since at least the Goliath tracked mines of World War II'"and they get scarier every day. Predator drones, TALON droids, and robotic rescue bears are already in service or near to it.

What is unlikely is a confluence of gigantic, humanoid, ambulatory, military robots'"better known as mecha. Anyone who says otherwise needs to detox from the anime and take an engineering course or two.

Think I'm wrong? There's all this comment space below to prove it.

Who'd like to comment on this silliness?

[Jharviss]

Actually, I find that he's quite right.  The giant robot idea makes little sense, especially when you compare it to advances in airplanes.  By the time something like a giant robot could be developed, our aeronautical and missile engineering will be so advanced that it makes the robot laughable.  In fact, I would argue we're already there.

[Moniker]

"Mecha" development would be nothing more than an exercise in our hubris. I agree with the ranter.

[Elemental_Elf]

Just because their 'stupid' doesn't mean they aren't cool.

I don't think any one truely wants the military to invent Gundam sized mecha. Its impractical and, yeah, sorta dumb. Tanks have a hard enough time staying alive, let alone a 50 foot tall bipedal robot.

I disagree with the guy about the hands. Mecha Hands aren't just for grasping beam swords, if it were the beam swourds would just be mounted on the mech's arm (and thus no need to worry about the saber flying out of the mech's hand). Rather, the hands are used so that multiple different weapons can be used with out the difficulty in mounting/bolting them in place. The hands exist so the mech has versatility in so far as being able to use many different weapons, from your standard Beam Saber to your standard high powered Beam Cannon, to your standard Beam Riffle, to your standard Beam Gatling Gun.

[Hibou]

lol @ military mechas

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Just because their 'stupid' doesn't mean they aren't cool.

Beat me to it.  :-/

I agree with the ranter, so long as he's speaking from a purely "not going to actually happen" point of view.  I seriously hope he's not expecting people to drop fictional humanoid mecha, as that would be a useless move.

I tend to think of any giant humanoids as catering to our desire for "fighting gods": something big and powerful so that every battle is larger than life.  Think of the myths of gods fighting monsters and how they're described and you have the reason for high-powered superheroes and anything so big that you can't ignore it when it's fighting in the middle of your city.

[Stargate525]

Looks I'm going to be taking the devil's advocate position, then.

I think mechas are a suitable platform for future military action.

Disclaimer. I'm not referring to machas as big as the chrysler building, I'm talking mechas that are maybe 25 feet tall, if that. Still frikkin huge if you're standing right next to it.

Bipedal robots are smart.
The bipedal system has one advantage that the original poster failed to mention; it's compact. Quadruped or greater systems will most likely be designed similar to a spider, aka legs far out from the body in order to present a low center of gravity. This makes the issue that you're going to have osme difficulty navigating the increasingly urban environment that wars are taking place in. In a narrow street, I'd prefer a little bit of correctable (by spreading the legs) instability with a small footprint than be forced to smash buildings on either side to get my spiderbot-o-doom through.

Robot hands are smart.
It's exactly a matter of practicality. hands are a multi-functioning, almost universal port for physcial objects. That mech need a rocket launcher, it'll fit. Machine gun, no problem. Flamethrower, you betcha. Out of ammo? Drop the gun and pick up the handy nearby automobile, lightpost, enemy soldier, you name it.

Universal weapons and attachments can be welded onto the shoulders or simialr locations, thus keeping the hands free. In an age where human hands aren't difficult to produce, why not put them in and go for the extra adaptability at little to no extra cost?

giant robots are stupid.
I agree to the extent that the original poster used the term 'giant.' To a soldier, I'd say a twenty-five foot robot would be classified as giant. That might just be me.

Even so, I'd like to propose one situation in where a giant device the size he posits might be feasible. A mobile, self-contained invasion force. Troop transport, refueling pads for gunships, tactical command, and emergency hospital in one central location. Granted, things like this would probably look more like the hardcell transports from episode two, but it's still giant robot...

[the_taken]

I think this guys main complaint is that the common anime watcher is too ignorant to have their willing suspension of disbelief end with the show.

I'm going to agree with Stargate's last statement. It's more cost effective to just keep out of Godzilla's way and kill his babies when he's not looking than to actively make a giant robot to take him on head to head.

That said, BGY-11 is a good size for a military robot running around a crumbling urban battle ground. In urban areas you can get away with having big wheals, but if the skyscrapers have come down, you want those legs.

[LordVreeg]

I need to point out another factor that is related, without dealing with the whole issue.

Technology and possiblities change greatly.
The whole bit about the difficulty in standing and bipedal locomotion mirrors a similar decades-long discussion about 2 wheeled personal transport.
http://www.segway.com/

So while perhaps some size issues and and utility issues need to be spoken to, but I think the bipedal issue would be dealt with.  I do not doubt that we could create the right set of balance and motion.

[Polycarp]

I basically agree with the essay, but the biggest problem to me is simply vertical relief.  Tanks are designed to be reasonably flat, so they can go "hull down" and hide all but their turret, making them very small targets.  Even a 25-foot tall "mecha" would be an extremely easy target from a great distance.

I don't think any kind of mecha with a cockpit would ever find any use in the armed forces.  The closest you are likely to see are powered armor suits, which might be a bit bigger than a human but probably no more than 8 feet or so.  In fact, it would probably be a benefit if the powered armor suit was small enough to fit through a doorway - such a suit would be most useful in urban warfare, where the inability of a classic mecha to squeeze down alleys or enter buildings would be a serious liability.

[Stargate525]

I basically agree with the essay, but the biggest problem to me is simply vertical relief.  Tanks are designed to be reasonably flat, so they can go "hull down" and hide all but their turret, making them very small targets.  Even a 25-foot tall "mecha" would be an extremely easy target from a great distance.

I agree, these wouldn't have application in lowlands and similar, but in urban environs, a 25-foot tall mecha would present a low to invisible profile against houses and such, but still be able to shoot over them.

[Polycarp]

I agree, these wouldn't have application in lowlands and similar, but in urban environs, a 25-foot tall mecha would present a low to invisible profile against houses and such, but still be able to shoot over them.

Uh, if it can shoot over them, then it's standing over the houses, which means it's still an easy target.  Wouldn't an APC be much better for urban warfare - or better yet, air power, which doesn't give a crap about relief?  Any modern bomber could deliver munitions with greater accuracy without the awkwardness of a machine built to the precarious height of being able to shoot over buildings.

There are simply much better - and smaller - weapons platforms.  Unless for some reason combat of the future includes giant wrestling, you want the smallest, most mobile, most easily hidden platform you have for a given weapon.  A giant robot does not accomplish that.

[Epic Meepo]

There are simply much better - and smaller - weapons platforms.  Unless for some reason combat of the future includes giant wrestling, you want the smallest, most mobile, most easily hidden platform you have for a given weapon.

Agreed. My ideal military robot would be a self-replicating nanobot programed to work in tandem with millions of others to create an amorphous swarm of whoop-ass, al la the T-1000. Need to manipulate something using a human hand: grow one. Need to fit through a door: flow like water. Need to present a low profile: become a molecule-thin film of robot goo covering the entire city. Need to scout a large area: split into a million independent pieces. Need to use a particular weapon or propulsion system: download the blueprints, eat some raw materials, and become the item in question. Lets see a giant humanoid robot do that!

[Polycarp]

Right, but as long as we remain in the age of soldier-based warfare (that is, the infantryman as the core, with machines - tanks, APCs, ships, planes - as his conveyance and weapons carriers) nanomachines are a bit beyond the horizon.  Even with "near future" technology I don't think walkers/mechas are in any way desirable.

[Haphazzard]

I have noticed that humans always imagine robots as looking like humans, and then strive to make them look like that.  The way a human is designed is so that we can live in many adverse conditions.  However, other animals are specialized.  The cheetah is designed to run up to 70 mph.  The Hyenah has stomach juices so acidic, it can eat rotting meat.  These guys don't exactly swim or climb with the best of them, however.  Monkeys are capable of climbing and swinging from tree to tree, but doesn't do too well at running.  If you buid a robot that can survive, it's gunna get whooped by a machine that highly excels at killing.  Thus, specialize the robot for killing.  A "killing machine," per-say.

As for the bipedal v.s. quadropedal?  Why not make both accessable.  If it's using it's arms for something other than walking, it only needs 2 legs, usually.  If it's fighting and moving, you could just build weaponry into the chassis...right?