The 4e GSL Topic

[Elemental_Elf]

Since the Tavern is now bloated with responses to Wizard's new information concerning the new Game System License, I figured we should move the conversation to a thread (ok, it was Poseidon's idea, lol)..

Ant any rate, here's what we know right now:

Thread[/url],  Important Post #1 &  Important Post #2

[snakefing]

I'm still largely waiting to see details of implementation. It does seem like this will make it harder to put out variant rule sets - or at least more inconvenient. But when it comes down to it, implementation makes a big difference in how hard it will be to create something that is just D&D with a variant spell system, for example.

I'm not sure that all this will really make a big business difference to WotC though - how much did something like True20 really take away from them? Only a tiny fraction of people use things like that, and I'd guess most of them own at least the D&D Player's Handbook anyway. If any of these systems really took off, it could take business away from WotC supplements and the like, since they wouldn't be compatible. But that hasn't happened, and it isn't really likely to happen.

A big part of this might be to help make a clear distinction in third party products between which parts are "D&D" vs. which parts are, e.g., "Green Ronin". They may feel that this helps them maintain their branding a little better, since actual "D&D" rules can't be reprinted mixed in amongst the third party material.

[Epic Meepo]

I tend to use the definition of Open Source appearing on  Wikipedia. One of the defining features of an open product is that the source code must either be included with the license or else made freely obtainable. Also, the redistribution of modifications to that source code must be allowed.

In terms of games, "source code" means core mechanics. For the most part, the OGL was Open Source according to this definition. With a few minor exceptions, the core mechanics were all freely available in the SRD and people were allowed to make and distribute any changes they wanted to those core mechanics.

The GSL does not appear to meet the definition of Open Source because it doesn't sound as though the new SRD actually contains any core mechanics. It only contains page number references you can use, and page number references do not constitute freely obtainable source code. Also, there is no indication yet that the license allows people to redistribute changes they make to the core mechanics; so far, we only know that they can make use of certain page number references.

Also, there is no evidence yet that the GSL allows you to make modifications to third party GSL products. Technically, third party products aren't D&D, and according to the announcement quoted in the OP, the GSL only allows you to use D&D 4th Edition rules. In contrast, the OGL allowed you to use any and all rules created under the OGL, not just D&D 3rd Edition rules.

Now don't get me wrong; I'm not one of those folks who thinks WotC is obligated to make 4e an open game. I don't think there's anything greedy or selfish about the way WotC is doing business. They own D&D, so they are certainly free to do with it or not do with it as they see fit.

Nevertheless, I do think WotC was correct when they changed the name of their new license from the 4e Open Gaming License to the Game System License. The removal of the word "Open" from the name accurately reflected the change in the nature of the license between the OGL and the GSL.

[SDragon]

... This royalty-free license will replace the former d20 System Trademark License (STL) ...

If I'm not mistaken, isn't that the bit that allowed publishers to make commercial 3.x material? If so, does that mean WotC is cutting off all potential 3.x support, including third party?


That wouldn't be good :(

[Tombowings]

I have no problem with it, now that they are no longer requiring companies to pay $5,000. It wouldn't be worth it with the little time until the June release.

[snakefing]

... This royalty-free license will replace the former d20 System Trademark License (STL) ...

With "replace" I assume they mean that it will be used for 4e in the place where STL was used in 3.x.

I don't think the previous licenses had a clause in them that allowed WotC to revoke or rewrite the license at will. So anything issued under previous licenses is still under those licenses.

In My Humble Non-Lawyerly Opinion (IMHNLO).

[Ishmayl-Retired]

Can someone who is more business/legal minded than I explain to me how this new license relates to me and my campaign setting?*  It seems to me that including core rules on my personal web site, or personal wiki site may possibly be against this new GSL??



*"Me and my campaign setting" refers to anyone building a homebrew campaign setting, and using core mechanics from core D&D

[Epic Meepo]

Can someone who is more business/legal minded than I explain to me how this new license relates to me and my campaign setting?*  It seems to me that including core rules on my personal web site, or personal wiki site may possibly be against this new GSL??

We'll have to wait to see the whole license before know for sure. But I drew the same conclusion that you did from what's already been said.

(Of course, either way, I doubt WotC is going to track you down and sue you for reprinting a few rules on your personal site. At least, I don't think they're that stupid; I imagine someone working there remembers the whole TSR fan site debacle.)

[Epic Meepo]

From the ENWorld main page for April 20th:

I believe, in fact, that it is even a bit more restrictive than people are seeing. It is not just that you cant mix the two licenses in one product. It is that if you use the GSL you cannot also use the OGL for 3E products.

In other words, publishers have to decide if they want to stay 3E or if they want to come along for the 4E ride.

In other words, Necro cant do 3 books for 4E then decide to go back and do a 3E book. Or, along the same lines, if Paizo wants to do Pathfinder 3E, it cant do 4E products. If it does, it can no longer do 3E ones.
<snip>

Once you are in for 4E, you are in, and cant go back (well, you could but you would presumably lose the right to use the GSL from that point forward).
<snip>

By the way, this info was from Wizards. Unless I am misunderstanding what they told me or they didnt understand my question, this is how it will be.

A couple key points found here and are likely to be included in the license (possibly in different language) <snip>

No Covered Product may change or extend the definition of any Defined Game Term as enumerated in this Guide.[/quote]

Summary: The GSL does not allow you to redefine any game terms.

[Ishmayl-Retired]

As in, I couldn't recreate the warlock class, or shifter race to better fit my campaign setting, or I can't rename rules, or what?

[brainface]

The more i read about 4e, the more i'm convinced that it will be a fun game, but absolutely crap for 3rd party publishers.

And, when asked "If you have a current 3e product released with the old license, and you wish to upgrade it to 4e, you can no longer sell the 3e version of the product, correct?"

If the license actually prevents selling the back catalog of OGL material, I can see it being a very tough choice for publishers.

[Epic Meepo]

If the license actually prevents selling the back catalog of OGL material, I can see it being a very tough choice for publishers.

I don't know for sure what the license says about selling existing stuff. The statements I've quoted above seem to be talking more about the creation of new 3.x and 4.0 material than about 3.x material that already exists. So maybe you can still sell existing 3.x stuff, so long as you never update it or print new copies.

EDIT: But that's still "absolute crap for third party publishers," as you put it, at least in terms of open game design. The OGL allowed for the continuous improvement of the rules, whereas the GSL merely allows one to adapt fluff material to fit a collection of immutable rules. All of the truly innovative third party stuff is going to have to happen in games entirely unrelated to Fourth Edition, since freelance designers can't add alternate mechanics to the 4.0 rules.

[Poseptune]

Got questions about the GSL?

Well you can ask them in this thread (not guaranteed to be answered though).

[SDragon]

Got questions about the GSL?

Well you can ask them in this thread (not guaranteed to be answered though).

Would anybody mind being an ambassador from the CBG? I have a few questions (mainly the ones mentioned in this thread), but I have absolutely no desire to go over to WotC boards. I haven't been there in so long, I don't think I can even remember my password there.

[Poseptune]

Got questions about the GSL?

Well you can ask them in this thread (not guaranteed to be answered though).

Would anybody mind being an ambassador from the CBG? I have a few questions (mainly the ones mentioned in this thread), but I have absolutely no desire to go over to WotC boards. I haven't been there in so long, I don't think I can even remember my password there.

Post em here, I'll take them over.