Magic: Time & Space

[Aequitas]

A bit of a nutty idea I had the other day :) consider whether all magic-like effects could be explained in terms of manipulating time and space.

Take a fireball type spell for example: rather than having a ball of fire "just" magically appear on top of your target, instead you know of a location in the world that currently has a great deal of heat (forest fire, volcano, etc.). You then bend space briefly to have that heat source temporarily relocated to your target area. Or, if more "power" can be applied, you may recall such an event from the past and yank the heat source through time & space.

I'm thinking most spell like effects could be described in terms such as this. It might even create an interesting world the caster is required to have first-hand experience of a usable event before being able to draw on it (e.g. had to have visited that volcano at some point).

Any thoughts?

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I think it sounds a lot like something a member previous described their magic system as. Salacious Angel, maybe?

An interesting twist.

[Eladris]

Reminds me of Mage: The Ascension and using Correspondence to duplicate any other rote.  I like the idea of manipulating spacetime with magic, but it gets hairy pretty fast, even if you're good at thinking on your feet as a DM.

[Raelifin]

The problem here is that you're attempting to justify an arbitrary set of effects with a vastly greater power.

Why "fireball" when you can just send someone's body in a million directions at once? Don't even try this unless you have a plan on how to deal with the immense power overflow.

The basic solution is to keep "spells" and simply use the time/space explanation as a set of laws for justifying them. This doesn't break the world, just the plausibility.

[Higgs Boson]

Building off of Raelifin's idea, perhaps you could make the bending time/space EXTREMELY draining, like only the most powerful mages ever in existance could use it on a regular basis, but "spells" have been designed as a way of making the casting much more efficient, or drain some sort of artifact.

[Ra-Tiel]

I had a similar idea once. Instead of some mystical force, spellcaster (being required to use gloves interwoven with a certain kind of crystal for casting) actually manipulate Strings (warning, fancy physics ahead!).

Casting a spell would not work off a level system or something, but instead of a "channeling" system in which the caster is required to build up a certain amount of "concentration" to successfully manipulate the Strings to create the desired effect. Certain effects were simply too difficult to achieve for lesser experienced casters, because a time limit would cause the Strings to return to their default state if the casting wasn't completed on time.

The variety of effects would have been greatly reduced compared to standard DnD.

Schools gone:
- Conjuration
- Divination
- Enchantment
- Necromancy

Schools heavily modified:
- Abjuration
- Illusion

Schools not or barely modified:
- Evocation
- Transmutation

Generally speaking, casters could only modify physical properties of creatures or objects. For example, a caster couldn't make his fighter stronger to make him deal more damage. However, he could situationally increase the sword's momentum without affecting its mass, thus increasing its energy on impact without making it more difficult to wield or something. Or he could modify the fighter's armor's weight without modifying its mass, thus reducing the fighter's encumbrance.

Alas, I never got far enough and the idea didn't make it past the brainstorming phase. :(

[Xeviat]

My only concern with searching for an explanation for magic is that you've created an explanation for magic that seems to require more energy than the desired outcome. All magic is essentially pulling energy from no-where, but teleporting in fire from somewhere seems more complicated than triggering an exothermic reaction.

But, with that out of the way, I am delighted to see the exploration of concise magic systems. I like it when all magic opperates under the same principals. In my own setting, all magic is done through coercing the spirits of the world to perform tasks. Ra-Tiel's idea limits the effects, which allows for more structure (mages that can do absolutely anything can get quite boring).

But the momment you put an explanation on magic like you're doing, you've instantly moved it closer to science fiction. This brings in more scrutany. You'd be suprised what readers can accept when you say "it's magic", but if you explain how magic works then it draws analysis.

One of my suggestions would be rather than bending space/time within your own universe to cause effects (which could be MASSIVE distances), explain it as bringing energy or matter in from other universes. If "M theory" and other parallel universe theories are correct, there could be other universes next to ours, displaced by mere nanometers. But since matter and most energy cannot leave its universe (or membraine as M theory calls them), things never interract.

Magicians, though, have the capacity to coerce the universes to touch, and achieve their desired result. Need fire? Find a universe under a constant exothermic reaction and temporarily make the spot you want to explode and the parallel spot on the fire universe one and the same for a split second: KABOOM!

This has inspired me. I'm going to make parallel universes the fundamental source of all supernatural activity in my d20 Modern setting.

[Nomadic]

My only concern with searching for an explanation for magic is that you've created an explanation for magic that seems to require more energy than the desired outcome. All magic is essentially pulling energy from no-where, but teleporting in fire from somewhere seems more complicated than triggering an exothermic reaction.

But, with that out of the way, I am delighted to see the exploration of concise magic systems. I like it when all magic opperates under the same principals. In my own setting, all magic is done through coercing the spirits of the world to perform tasks. Ra-Tiel's idea limits the effects, which allows for more structure (mages that can do absolutely anything can get quite boring).

But the momment you put an explanation on magic like you're doing, you've instantly moved it closer to science fiction. This brings in more scrutany. You'd be suprised what readers can accept when you say "it's magic", but if you explain how magic works then it draws analysis.

One of my suggestions would be rather than bending space/time within your own universe to cause effects (which could be MASSIVE distances), explain it as bringing energy or matter in from other universes. If "M theory" and other parallel universe theories are correct, there could be other universes next to ours, displaced by mere nanometers. But since matter and most energy cannot leave its universe (or membraine as M theory calls them), things never interract.

Magicians, though, have the capacity to coerce the universes to touch, and achieve their desired result. Need fire? Find a universe under a constant exothermic reaction and temporarily make the spot you want to explode and the parallel spot on the fire universe one and the same for a split second: KABOOM!

This has inspired me. I'm going to make parallel universes the fundamental source of all supernatural activity in my d20 Modern setting.

I wonder what would happen if you made lord vreeg and the universe of buttless chaps one and the same for a split second.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

One of my suggestions would be rather than bending space/time within your own universe to cause effects (which could be MASSIVE distances), explain it as bringing energy or matter in from other universes. If "M theory" and other parallel universe theories are correct, there could be other universes next to ours, displaced by mere nanometers. But since matter and most energy cannot leave its universe (or membraine as M theory calls them), things never interract.

Magicians, though, have the capacity to coerce the universes to touch, and achieve their desired result. Need fire? Find a universe under a constant exothermic reaction and temporarily make the spot you want to explode and the parallel spot on the fire universe one and the same for a split second: KABOOM!

This has inspired me. I'm going to make parallel universes the fundamental source of all supernatural activity in my d20 Modern setting.

Reminds me of of my "outside energies" idea that I posted on the "What Is Magic?" thread:
There is special energy which lies outside, inside, and even makes up the universe.  Mages can do one of three things with this energy: bring it in, change its form while it is here (eventually taking all the specialness out of it), and releasing it back.  Each method can accomplish certain effects.

[Ra-Tiel]

[...] But the momment you put an explanation on magic like you're doing, you've instantly moved it closer to science fiction. This brings in more scrutany. You'd be suprised what readers can accept when you say "it's magic", but if you explain how magic works then it draws analysis. [...]

While I generally agree with your points, this one deserves a little more detail.

You are generally speaking correct - using "it's magic" does prevent analysis somewhat. But only to a certain degree. If you allow magic to do really impressive things, the question "why doesn't X do Y, like he did in Z to solve problem ABC?", which brings in analysis right again.

This happens a lot in "escalating" settings, novels, and series, where the protagonist gets more and more awesome with each episode, yet apparently is unable to apply abilities he had 2 chapters earlier to the current situation.

[XXsiriusXX]

I believe that there is a prestige class in the 3rd edition Manual of the Planes (D&D) that has an ability to change an area of one plane to another. Now it is not really what you are looking for, but it could give you a bases for rules. As soon as I find the book, I'll give you the name of the class.  

[Xeviat]

Ra, you've pointed out a narative problem with some stories. The type of analysis you're talking about isn't what I was talking about; I was refering more to trying to apply physics to magic.

But thank you. Knowing you (generally) like my points makes me feel great. Consider my day brightened. =)

[Hibou]

Haveneast sort of does this, with the understanding that the universe, even though being roughly as old as our own, is still creating and shaping itself, so there is a lot of raw material out there and in other dimensions as well... casters can often summon materials or people from elsewhere by bending space and time, but active chemical processes such as fire just don't work - without whatever is burning, it'd just turn into a puff of smoke. Most sorcerers, if they want to hurl fireballs, learn a bit of Paradigmancy, soak a rag on top of their staves, light it, and start manipulating that fire (but there is always a way to achieve the D&D-style elemental magic...).