[poll] Rebalancing D&D's Magic System

[Xeviat]

I'm putting this on the Meta board because I'd like the topic to discuss Magic in the standard D&D world, not necessarily home worlds. This is not an attempt to create a low magic world, a high magic world; it is entirely an attempt to balance spell casters against non-spell casters.

If you've been playing or DMing for more than a few sessions in mid to high levels, you should already know that it is almost impossible to have a party without an arcane/utility caster, and it is even more impossible to have a party without a divine/support caster. There are many options for each of these roles, but a party without them is at a severe disadvantage.

Adventurers and warriors, on the other hand, are quite replaceable. The PHB2 even admits this; a warrior can easily be replaced with another Cleric (in fact, this generally increases the strength of a party). The role of the Adventurer can easily be split between the utility and support casters. A party with two clerics and two wizards is quite possibly more skilled, and thus more successful in their endeavors, than a standard cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard party.

This is unacceptable. I'm tired of setting up campaigns or adventures with new players and having to make them decide who will play each role. One of the first campaigns I ran did not have a devoted arcane or divine caster (the sorcerer was a sorcerer/fighter, and the "healer" in the party was a ranger with cure wands). This group suffered ... a lot. It was very difficult to run them through multiple encounters.

So, I'm here to discuss possible options to alter the Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, and Wizard, in order to make them more balanced against non-casters. This will come in two parts: balancing these classes so that their power is more level throughout the day, and also toning them down so their per-combat output is as strong as the other classes. This will be difficult, so I'm opening the floor for any and all ideas.

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Inner Balance
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The first and most pressing problem with the current casters is that they are next to worthless when they exhaust their spells. This doesn't happen too often in mid levels, and rarely happens in high levels, but they suffer tremendously during low levels. The sorcerer and wizard suffer the most for this: they are the only classes in Core D&D that can turn themselves into glorified commoners.

Anyone who's played a first level sorcerer with 4 first level spells a day, or a wizard with two first level spells per day knows exactly what I'm talking about. The warrior has an attack that, if it hits, typically deals 1d8+2 damage, with a decent critical range (talking about a long sword from a character with a 15 strength; standard for a typical warrior). The wizard, on the other hand, might have two magic missiles a day, which all though they never miss and there is no save, does much less damage than the warrior's attack.

Later in the game, though, spell casters can end encounters with single spells. I've seen entire combat's turn with a well placed Dominate or Hold; heck, even web, sleep, and charm can immediately turn the tables. Forget the damage output of a wizard's spells (these are typically reasonable compared to a fighter's full attack); between "save or die" and "save or you're screwed", casters vastly out power other casters ... until the middle of the day. Generally speaking, most caster players hang onto some good spells for the end of the day, but if pushed they'll blow them all off to end an encounter as quickly as possible. With their most potent powers out of the way, they're generally balanced against the others.

The problem comes in when they finish blowing off these powers. With enough potions, the warriors and adventurers can generally fight all day; especially if we're speaking about rogues and fighters who have next to no X/day abilities.

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Exterior Balance
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The overall output of caster classes needs to be tweaked to balance them against non-casters. Nothing feels worse than playing a common and archetypical role, let's say the knight in shinning armor or the weapons master, and having your job simply be protecting the party's casters.

By reducing their per combat output, but increasing their daily stamina, I think this problem could be alleviated.

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My Initial Ideas
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I believe that the solution lies in some recent creations of wizards, from the incarnum classes to the warlock and the dragon shaman. These classes have abilities that are moderately less powerful than true casters, but they're usable at will. How sorcerous do you feel at first level, walking around with four magic missiles; when you use these, you're nothing more than a peasant, and can't even perform simple magic tricks (unless you have prestidigitation, but that will only hold out for so long).

I've been considering the possibility of drastically reducing caster's spell slots (or MP/PP), perhaps by as much as half. Further still, in an MP/PP system, I'm still considering adding in fatigue rules; if you expend half your maximum MP, you are fatigued; if you expend three quarters, you're exhausted. To compensate, not only will MP regenerate at a rate of 1 point/hour/level (like non-lethal damage or vitality points do), but I'll also add in a mechanic to switch out prepared spells in the middle of the day. Last, classes would get a warlock like ability that they can use at will: sorcerers may get something like eldritch blast or a breath weapon; wizards might get an ability based on their specialization; clerics would get an ability based on their domains; and druids have their shape shifting (using the PHB2 variant so it's at will).

This way, the spell casting classes would have some minor magic that they could do as much as they want, but will still have access to more potent magic if they're willing to risk the consequences. Applied to Psions, it would limit situations of characters "going nova", because there would be true risks for it.

So, what are your thoughts?

[brainface]

I think something like 90% of the cleric's problems could be solved by removing the 'divine' spell chain. (Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might). I swear every "CLERICS ARE SO MUCH BETTER THAN FIGHTERS" thread starts out with a persistant divine favor spell.

Ditto arcane casters and the polymorph chain. Every "NEW SPLAT BOOK X IS OVERPOWERED" thread i've seen starts out with a polymorph spell.

I thought awhile back of making a cleric variant that couldn't do any personal or target only buffs. Replacing bull's strength with a slightly weaker mass version, etc. That way the cleric could never overwhelm the fighter in melee cause the cleric buffs affected the fighter as well. :)

I'd also say the way to fix the cleric's much greater healing ability isn't the weaken it, but instead to improve everyone else's ability to heal. (give druids good cure progression, things along that line.) If clerics are ripped of the ability to heal things well, that still leaves everyone else as piss-poor healers.

As far as spells like knock, and the save-or-dies, i'd say just remove the damned things, or make them weaker. (knock rolls a caster level check against lock dc or something, give save-or-dies have a harm-like damage limit, stuff like that.)

An option i've seen for the charm, dominate, save-or-you're-screwed spells is to give them a hp limit of what they can affect. Say charm person can only affect an opponent with less than 5hp/caster level (or 1d6hp/caster level?), something like that. that way a fighter has to beat on something before a wizard can end the encounter.

I think the 1st-level wizard problem is solved once wands come along, from what i've seen in play. giving more of them out (even wands of ray-of-frost), or even giving some kind of default magi-attack might be an option? (daze/ray of frost at will, scaled with level??)
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I'd also have to say I haven't SEEN most of the problems you're given. I think due to a combination of
1. No higher level play
2. Very casual players
3. No splatbooks

Options 1 & 2 of course can't really be changed, but using option 3 takes out, you know, divine feats, prestige class X from forgotten realms, etc.

You may also be able to enact some change by altering encounters--using golems, adding dedicated counterspellers to the enemy party, etc. I'm not sure how easy that'd be to do, though. If the tanks are feeling they're only there to protect casters, having enemies focus on the tanks might help. That way the casters' role is to make tanks survive :D

[Xeviat]

Your idea on hp limits and caster level checks for some spells are interesting; I'm going to keep those on the tip of my brain.

But you didn't seem to address the issue of the caster's "inner balance"; the fact that their strength is reliant on their spell-slots, which can be exhausted.

A system of caster-level checks could completely abolish the need for slots and mp, or could be used in combination in order to possibly allow slots to be kept (for instance, if a character has a set number of spells per day without reference to levels, and then spell levels just reference the difficulty of successfully casting the spell; then characters can voluntarily increase the DC in order to cast without loosing the slot).

I've been playing other systems than d20 recently, so perhaps that's why the flaws of the D&D casters are being put into such focus for me.

[brainface]

it's not really just the casters, though. Burning resources is what all the classes do, to a lesser or greater extent--the paladin's smite evil, barbarian rages, bard songs, potions, wands, boots of teleportation, what have you--and for all classes, hitpoints.

Arcane casters are just hurt the worst in this, in that a despelled cleric can still beat things moderately well. (although a higher level caster would be hard pressed to burn thru EVERY spell... and an exhausted healer means the party is going to start running out of hitpoints, fast.)

[Xeviat]

Sure, most characters other than fighters and rogues have daily resources. You mention potions, but those are expendable resources in general; you don't get them back.

I really like the new Berserker Strength variant for Barbarians out of the PHB2. I really like the Psionic Focus mechanics from the XPH. It gives me hopes to take the game in a direction where there are less daily use abilities, so classes would be easier to balance.

[brainface]

yeah, i don't really dig the 'daily uses' thing, either--it tends to jar badly with my suspension of disbelief. I mean, i'll take it if it works, but i'd rather resting be based on time/plot, not 'i just ran out of my good spells, so we better pull out the sleeping bags'.

It's not so bad in pnp, i don't think, but it's HORRIBLE in things like nwn, baldur's gate, etc. I really wish every crpg of dnd would use unearthed arcana's recharge magic, or something.

[Raelifin]

It's clear to me that there is a swing from warriors being stronger at levels 1-4 and then mages being better at levels 5-20+. However, I'm not sure how to "fix" this problem, so I'm not going to try until I get some more experience with magic systems.

[limetom]

My 2 cents...

Well, Iron Heroes has a mana system where you have to first channel mana then channel the spell, and both have risks.

You have a limited amount of mana you can use per spell.  If you go over this, you take Intelligence damage.  Iron Heroes only has one caster class, but this is easily appliable to any D&D class, simply replace Intelligence with whatever key ability modifer you have.

Every single spell a caster uses in Iron Heroes entails risk.  You must make a save every spell, or have something go wrong.  However, the class allows you to choose among several spell-like abilities, all of which are scalable, that allow you to use magic safely.

Iron Heores addmitiedly makes magic an intentionally risky proposition, but due to its inherent low-magic nature, it pays off.

It is this that I base my solution off of.

I'd start with each class gaining warlock-like powers.  Some gain 1 or more major powers.  Others gain minor powers as well.  Major powers are usable at will.  Minor powers are usable a certian number of times per day (not determined).

Every time they try to use one of their abilities, they must make a check (1d20 + primary ability modifier + caster level) to use it.  Each will have an increasing difficulty class per level.  If they fail the check, they simply do not cast the spell.

Any caster/manifester can use minor powers, and powers it does not have normal access to, more than the alloted time per day, but suffers the risk of ability burn to their primary casting score.

The Wizard
Wizards must choose a school.  They gain a major power based off of that school.  For schools with subschools, they get to choose one of several abilities.  Their minor powers are chosen from other schools, but suffer a effective level penalty.

*

Abjure (Abjuration): Protects the wizard in various ways.  Provides scaleable damage reduction, starting at 2/-, and a scaleable resistance bonus to saving throws, starting at +2.

*Call/Summon (Conjuration (Calling/Summoning)): Summons a level appropriate creature, based off of alignment.  The Calling version brings a being for a long time.  The Summoning version brings beings for a shorter time; it can summon multiple creatures.  

*Creation (Conjuration (Creation)): Creates an object and grants the caster proficiency if nessecary.

*Shift (Conjuration (Teleportaion)): Allows for scalable teleportation.  Advances slower than other abilities, starting at 5 ft. to a random location and ending up at transdimesional with perfect accuracy.

*Divine (Divination): At low levels, it only functions to read base emotions or whether or not an object has a magical arua.  At later levels, it is much more powerful.

*Scry (Divination (Scrying)): At low levels, you can do things such as look on the other side of doors.  At later levels, you can veiw locations on other planes.

*Charm (Enchantment (Charm)): As the spell.

*Control (Enchantment (Compulsion)): At low levels, it functions in a specific manner as determined by the caster, much like command.  At later levels, it allows the caster to control other beings.

*Evoke (Evocation): Creates or controls energy.  A wizard must choose 1 energy type and stay with it.

*Figment (Illusion (Figment)): Alters a creature's senses.  At low levels, it can only affect one sense to a limited extent.  At later levels, it can affect all 5 senses to a full extent.

*Glamer (Illusion (Glamer)): Alters the way the wizard appears to others' senses.  At low levels, it can only affect one sense to a limited extent.  At later levels, it can affect all 5 senses, making the wizard either completely different or appear to be not there at all.

*Pattern (Illusion (Pattern)): Captivates other creatures.  At low levels, it can only affect one creature to a limited extent.  At later levels, it can affect any number of creatures to an extreme extent.

*Phantasm (Illusion (Phantasm)): Creates a personalized mental impression.  At low levels, it can only affect one creature only as a distraction.  At later levels, it can affect multiple creatures like a phantasmal killer or something similar.

*Shadow (Illusion (Shadow)): Creates a quasi-real object or creature.  Real to a scaleable precentage.

*Unlife (Necromancy): Creates undead.  At low levels, it can only create skeletons and zombies.  At later levels, it can kill living creatures and turn them into undead.

*Alter (Transmutation): Alters a creature, either the wizard or other beings.  At low levels, it can only change appearnce.  At later levels, it can change form.[/list]

The Sorcerer
Sorcerers gain several major powers from the same list as wizards, but they have a effective level reduction.  They gain more minor powers, with an even greater effective level reduction.

They have more raw firepower, but less focus.

The Druid
Driuds gain a wildshape ability.  They also gain other, lesser abilities related to the natural world, similar to what the class is like now.

The Cleric
Clerics gain 2 major powers based off their domains.  They are able to channel positive and negative energy into raw power, using them not only to affect undead, but also to heal and harm.

Winds (Air Domain): Controls the air.  At low levels, it can check low creatures.  At later levels, it can blow multiple creatures away.

*

Wilding (Animal Domain): Can control animals.

*Word of Chaos (Chaos Domain): As the spell, reduced as needed.

*Unlife (Death Domain): As the Necromancy school power.

*Smite (Destruction Domain): Enhances attacks against other creatures.

*Earthquake (Earth Domain): Can radically alter the ground.  At lower levels, it can impare creature's movement.  At higher levels, it can create fissures in the ground.

*Blasphemy (Evil Domain): As the spell, reduced as needed.

*Conflagration (Fire Domain): Sets fire to a creature or object.  At lower levels, it can make a small fire.  At higher levles, it can completely incinerate beings or objects.

*Holy Word (Good Domain): As the spell, reduced as needed.

*Heal (Healing Domain): Heals a creature.  More powerful than channeling energy.

*Discern (Knowledge Domain): Allows the cleric to foresee the outcome of his actions.  At lower levels, it can give a "feeling."  At higher levels, it can give a detailed information.

*Dictum (Law Domain): As the spell, reduced as needed.

*Luck (Luck Domain): Allows the cleric to reroll one roll he just made.

*Magic Domain: Functions as one wizard/sorcerer major power.

*Wilding (Plant Domain): Can control plants, fungi, etc.

*Abjure (Protection Domain): As the Abjuration school power.

*Might (Strength Domain): Increases the cleric's strength score.  At lower levels, it is it is a slight bonus.  At higher levels, it grants superhuman strength.

*Sunburst (Sun Domain): Channels intense positive energy through the cleric.  At lower levels, it makes it so that creatures cannot look at the cleric.  At higher levels, it can blind creatures and do damage.

*Shift (Travel Domain): As the Conjuration (Teleportation) subschool major power.

*(Trickery Domain): As one of the Illusion school major powers.

*Prowess (War Domain): Similar to the weapon of the deity spell.  Scales by level.

*Maelstrom (Water Domain): Allows the cleric to control water.  At lower levels, it can slow or speed a current.  At higher levels, it can create small tsunami.[/list]

The Bard
The bard can choose several powers from either the cleric's domain major powers or the wizard/sorcerer's school major powers.

The Psion
The psion gains major powers based off of their discipline.

*

(Psychometabolism Discipline):

*Psychokensis Discipline: As one of the Evocation school major power.

*Shift (Psychoportation Discipline): As the Conjuration (Teleportation) subschool major power.

*Clarsentience Discipline: As one of the Divination school major powers.

*Ectoplasm (Metacreativity Discipline): Creates a creature from ectoplasm.  Numerous customization options that scale by level.

*Telepathy (Telepathy Discipline): Can create a link with other creatures.  At lower levels, it can be used for communication.  At later levels, it can be used to kill, after concentration.[/list]

The Psychic Warrior
The psychic warrior gains 1 major power based off of a one of a psion's discipline major powers or the cleric's Smite (Destruction domain) major power.  The psychic warrior does not gain any minor powers.

The Wilder
The wilder gains 1 major power from among the psion's discipline major powers.  The wilder does not gain minor powers.  The overchannel type power remain the same.

[Ishmayl-Retired]

yeah, i don't really dig the 'daily uses' thing, either--it tends to jar badly with my suspension of disbelief. I mean, i'll take it if it works, but i'd rather resting be based on time/plot, not 'i just ran out of my good spells, so we better pull out the sleeping bags'.

It's not so bad in pnp, i don't think, but it's HORRIBLE in things like nwn, baldur's gate, etc. I really wish every crpg of dnd would use unearthed arcana's recharge magic, or something.

A fix for this, I think, is something I saw another DM do in a campaign.  Regaining spells was not based on getting your 8 hours of sleep, but it was based on the simple fact that you only regain spells once every 24-hour period.  He explained it "in-game" by linking various casters with either the sun or the moon, or with day or night, or with light or dark, or something along those lines, just to add some role-playing to it, but until the sun hit the horizon, or the moon hit its zenith, or at noon during the day, casters could not regain their spells. Then, at that point, their spells came back to them, and any new spells they wanted to substitue just appeared in their list.  When players created their characters, they chose at the moment of creation what time of day they wanted to regain spells, and it was set in stone after that.  Sure, it requires maybe a tiny bit more of a suspension of disbelief, but on the other hand, hey, it's magic, so what do you expect?  I'm sure this kind of system could be tweaked really well to work properly, I believe this DM I refer to just threw it together pretty quickly.  Sorry for the crappy grammar, I'm trying to get several posts in before I head out of the house.

[brainface]

Every single spell a caster uses in Iron Heroes entails risk. You must make a save every spell, or have something go wrong. However, the class allows you to choose among several spell-like abilities, all of which are scalable, that allow you to use magic safely.

Iron Heores addmitiedly makes magic an intentionally risky proposition, but due to its inherent low-magic nature, it pays off.

enemies[/i].
http://p222.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm36

Regaining spells was not based on getting your 8 hours of sleep, but it was based on the simple fact that you only regain spells once every 24-hour period.

now[/i]. seriously, read the magic chapter :) and you're not supposed to actually be able to rest early to regain spells. (though i know we've done it in several games.)

[limetom]

Every single spell a caster uses in Iron Heroes entails risk. You must make a save every spell, or have something go wrong. However, the class allows you to choose among several spell-like abilities, all of which are scalable, that allow you to use magic safely.

Iron Heores addmitiedly makes magic an intentionally risky proposition, but due to its inherent low-magic nature, it pays off.

enemies[/i].
http://p222.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm36

That's why I messed with it.  Look right below.

[brainface]

Yeaah, i haven't seen iron heroes' system to compare it. i just remember the forum traffic being something like "Iron Heroes=awesome. Arcanist=something far less than awesome :(.

Also: we have list codes?? i should know this.

[limetom]

Wow... I should learn how to use the quote tag before helping Brainface.

(Actually, I just used the quote button and it came up like that.)