Do you understand what "vanilla fantasy" means anymore?

[Gamer Printshop]

I don't understand the haughty attitude many have against 'vanilla fantasy.' Just because Jimmy's world draws on the standard tropes of fantasy literature doesn't make it any less of a legitimate world than your dystopian pineapple-shaped world populated by god-less broccoli valkyries.   :mad:

I didn't say Gary's world was a bad thing, I just said it was vanilla. I have enormous respect for the man and his work, and was honored to have met him at Gencon 07, just a few months before he passed. Its just Greyhawk is the definition of vanilla fantasy, in my eyes.

Fact is I like vanilla icecream (Breyers Vanilla with the flecks of vanilla bean is great), though I prefer Rocky Road and Cherry Garcia.

GP

[Bill Volk]

It's true that Gygax dug up a lot of obscure mythological monsters like the catoblepas, and he also invented plenty of brand new monsters, mostly of the "pop-out-and-kill-adventurers-in-some-totally-unfair-fashion" variety like the Lurker Above and the rust monster, but also many of the "splice-animals-together-to-create-something-hilarious" variety like the owlbear. The original monsters that fit in neither of these categories, like the beholder and the githyanki, were so successful and iconic that they were later excluded from the OGL.

D&D used to be very freaky and very lethal. This style of RPG used to be the definition of vanilla, but resurrecting it now would be retro enough to qualify as not vanilla anymore. That's why the word "Gygaxian" now exists.

[Steerpike]

[blockquote=Elemental_Elf]Ok, how are Greyhawk, Faerun and Middle-Earth related? Middle-Earth has less races and less nations. Pre-4E Faerun has the greatest diversity of races, gods, nations and cultures (read as real world proxys). Greyhawk is more of the middle child.

Middle-Earth was written long before the other two. Faerun was (initially) created with a different goal than Greyhawk (being more of world and less of an adventurer's backdrop). The number of 'chefs in the kitchen' also varies, from 1 (Middle-Earth) to some (GH) to a ton (FR).

With so many differences, what really unites the 3 as being 'vanilla?' [/blockquote]Obviously there are some major differences between those three settings, but compared to some other settings out there, Greyhawk, Faerun, and Middle Earth are pretty similar in many respects.  The stock characters mentioned above are a big part of this: woodsie or high-magicy elves, beardsie, ale-swilling, mountain-dwelling dwarves, hairy-footed halflings, nasty orcs (sure, Faerun has slightly different orcs than Middle Earth orcs, but they're still broadly quite comparable), etc.  Faerun might have more deities and cultures than Middle Earth, but like Greyhawk and Middle Earth it's dominated by a predominantly medieval society with a late Dark Ages or early Middle Ages tech level.

Compare the 3 settings to some other somewhat popular/mainstream settings out there: let's say Dark Sun, World of Darkness, Exalted, and Arcana Unearthed.  Maybe I see things differently but I see those 3 settings as having much much more in common with each other than with those settings.  Or compare them to a few settings on these boards: Xiluh, The Jade Stage, Divergence, and Silvercat's Dream, for example.  A couple of those settings have a few of the same races as Greyhawk, Faerun, and Middle Earth, but their treatment of those races/cultures is usually radically different compared to the relatively similar treatment given to those races in the vanilla 3.

Note that I'm not an expert on Faerun, although I'd like to think I'm fairly familiar with it from articles, computer games, and the internet.  It's definitely more diverse than Middle Earth from what I've seen, but still seems more similar than different to Greyhawk and Middle Earth, at least when compared to more avant-garde or "out-there" settings.

For the record, I don't hate vanilla settings, I just don't prefer them.  I do like dystopian settings - I have a definite taste for the macabre or "dark" - but I like lots of non-dystopian settings in gaming and literature as well.  I'm also not claiming that anyone shouldn't enjoy vanilla settings: they're some people's cup of tea, and that's totally cool, and I respect the energy and detail in many vanilla settings (such as Faerun) even if they're not my favorites - in other words, I don't feel I look down on vanilla settings, or on players/DMs who prefer them, just because I don't personally enjoy them.

[Elemental_Elf]

Good, my comment generated much discussion (which was the post's aim).

Ok, so by you're guy's logic, any (or most) settings that have a Mid Middle Age Tech, Idealized Western Societies, Dwarves, Elves (in 1, 2 or 3 varieties), Orcs, Halflings and Humans is a 'vanilla setting?'

If so I think your criteria is too broad. Many settings can have those elements and still be unique and not-vanilla. i think we, as a group, need to better define vanilla with stricter criteria, if only to get a better sense of what truly is and is not vanilla.

[Scholar]

Ok, so by you're guy's logic, any (or most) settings that have a Mid Middle Age Tech, Idealized Western Societies, Dwarves, Elves (in 1, 2 or 3 varieties), Orcs, Halflings and Humans is a 'vanilla setting?'

yup, spot on. the only thing missing is cultural stagnation. most vanilla settings have huuuuge histories that either loop or are like normal history stretched out. that's because big numbers sound more epic. "the sword was forged OVER 9000 YEARS AGO!" is way cooler for some people than "my granddad forged that sword, back when old luthor was king."

If so I think your criteria is too broad. Many settings can have those elements and still be unique and not-vanilla. i think we, as a group, need to better define vanilla with stricter criteria, if only to get a better sense of what truly is and is not vanilla.

hmm... being made from stock elements and not being vanilla is kind of impossible, isn't it? or do you mean they have *some* of them, but not all?

[Elemental_Elf]

You can has all of the 'stock elements' and create something new and exciting. Adding only 1 theme to the 'stock elements,' which is something ALL settings do, no matter how vanilla they may seem, can create a very different product.

Example: The World of Gutrapaka is inhabited by countless sub-races of Elves and Dwarves, accompanied by an equal number of Halflings, Humans and Orcs. The World's history stretches back to the time when the Goddess Xevcoticua created each of the races some 25,000 years ago. From that day to the present, Chivalric Knights clad in full plate have fought thousands of wars, each more disastrous to the peasantry than the last. The constant wars have brought ruin to the land, forcing the people of once great nations to seek security near the various fortifications that dot the landscape. The land left by the Human's retreat laid fallow for many hundreds of years. Slowly monsters crept out of the shadows, inhabiting the unsown lands, claiming it for themselves. Left unchecked and unchallenged for centuries, the monsters have once more risen to become a significant threat to the nations of Gutrapaka. Men are forced to bear the brunt of the tidal wave, as the Elves stay hidden in their forests and the Dwarves in their mountain holds. This has caused a colossal migration of humans from the periphery of the '˜civilized zone' and into its core, further worsening the already bleak situation. Fewer and fewer crops are harvested each year and yet the aristocrat's demands of tribute only increase, to the point where peasants are left to starve during the cold, harsh winters. Normally the various churches of the 10,000 God Pantheon would come to the aide of the peasantry however a great crusade was called some centuries ago, to stave off the growth of the most ferocious of monsters '" the Dragons. With their resources stretched thin, none can spare even a ration for the poor.

Obviously this setting's premise draws on all the vanilla tropes we here discussed but it is obviously not vanilla due to the addition of a dystopian theme. Now granted this is extreme but it does serve its purpose inillustrating the fact that our tropes of vanilla fantasy are too broad and thus need to be honed in upon more.

[Loch Belthadd]

You can has all of the 'stock elements' and create something new and exciting. Adding only 1 theme to the 'stock elements,' which is something ALL settings do, no matter how vanilla they may seem, can create a very different product.

Example: The World of Gutrapaka is inhabited by countless sub-races of Elves and Dwarves, accompanied by an equal number of Halflings, Humans and Orcs. The World's history stretches back to the time when the Goddess Xevcoticua created each of the races some 25,000 years ago. From that day to the present, Chivalric Knights clad in full plate have fought thousands of wars, each more disastrous to the peasantry than the last. The constant wars have brought ruin to the land, forcing the people of once great nations to seek security near the various fortifications that dot the landscape. The land left by the Human's retreat laid fallow for many hundreds of years. Slowly monsters crept out of the shadows, inhabiting the unsown lands, claiming it for themselves. Left unchecked and unchallenged for centuries, the monsters have once more risen to become a significant threat to the nations of Gutrapaka. Men are forced to bear the brunt of the tidal wave, as the Elves stay hidden in their forests and the Dwarves in their mountain holds. This has caused a colossal migration of humans from the periphery of the '˜civilized zone' and into its core, further worsening the already bleak situation. Fewer and fewer crops are harvested each year and yet the aristocrat's demands of tribute only increase, to the point where peasants are left to starve during the cold, harsh winters. Normally the various churches of the 10,000 God Pantheon would come to the aide of the peasantry however a great crusade was called some centuries ago, to stave off the growth of the most ferocious of monsters '" the Dragons. With their resources stretched thin, none can spare even a ration for the poor.

Obviously this setting's premise draws on all the vanilla tropes we here discussed but it is obviously not vanilla due to the addition of a dystopian theme. Now granted this is extreme but it does serve its purpose inillustrating the fact that our tropes of vanilla fantasy are too broad and thus need to be honed in upon more.

did you write this setting?

[Kindling]

I'd agree that it is possible to have a non-vanilla world which still includes elves, dwarves, orcs and the rest, but... Well, it's either gonna be "vanilla with a twist" rather than entirely original, or you're going to have changed things so much from their traditional roots that there's no real reason keeping the names... If your orcs are civilised merchant-wizards with a penchant for mathematics and complex musical compositions, then they're hardly orcs anymore, right?

[Llum]

I dunno about anyone else but I find the "setting" Elemental_Elf posted quite vanilla. I think I'm going to have to agree with SilverCat MoonPaw in that "dystopian" is now a fairly vanilla element.

I would also like to say that Kindlings mentioning of "vanilla with a twist" is still in essence a "vanilla" setting. Just with a twist... obviously

[Kindling]

That was kind of my point :P

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

I think I'm going to have to agree with SilverCat MoonPaw in that "dystopian" is now a fairly vanilla element.

That wasn't really what I was trying to say, but I do agree that it's a valid interpretation.

[Biohazard]

The futility of the question is kind of like asking someone if they like rock music. Opinions of what it is are going to be very diverse, and what one classifies as said genre may be the determinant for whether or not they say they like it or not.

[Scholar]

Obviously this setting's premise draws on all the vanilla tropes we here discussed but it is obviously not vanilla due to the addition of a dystopian theme. Now granted this is extreme but it does serve its purpose inillustrating the fact that our tropes of vanilla fantasy are too broad and thus need to be honed in upon more.

it's still vanilla, because it still fullfills all the criteria (five races, cultural stasis, european middle ages, OTT history, etc). sorry. the added dystopian theme is just the chocolate sprinkles on the delicious v-flavoured ice-cream. ;)
we should also add "no regard to "hard" demographic and/or geographic facts" to the list of vanilla tropes.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Obviously this setting's premise draws on all the vanilla tropes we here discussed but it is obviously not vanilla due to the addition of a dystopian theme. Now granted this is extreme but it does serve its purpose inillustrating the fact that our tropes of vanilla fantasy are too broad and thus need to be honed in upon more.

it's still vanilla, because it still fullfills all the criteria (five races, cultural stasis, european middle ages, OTT history, etc). sorry. the added dystopian theme is just the chocolate sprinkles on the delicious v-flavoured ice-cream. ;)
we should also add "no regard to "hard" demographic and/or geographic facts" to the list of vanilla tropes.

While the extension of the metaphor amused me, I think to define the term so broadly (and mutably, since the definition seems to be every changing) is to render it more-or-less meaningless. Assuming it ever had any meaning--the original question seemed to be what does "vanilla fantasy" mean. If it means something different to everyone that hears the term, it doesn't really mean much of anything.

[Ishmayl-Retired]

'¦'¦'¦'¦'¦dystopian'¦'¦'¦'¦'¦'¦

Unfortunately this one characteristic seems to be the defining factor in whether or not a setting is noticed.  I had one guy who's setting I reviewed tell me that the only reason it was dark fantasy was because it had been decided that that was the best way to ensure it sold.

I find this to be at least slightly preposterous.  There are plenty of amazing settings on this site which are nowhere near a classic definition of dystopian.  And Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk, two of the biggest sellers in the entire fantasy world (I'm talking all RPGs here, not just D&D), are not dystopian.  Eberron really isn't either.  Getting a setting noticed is about being original and having a real story, and on top of that, being able to sell your story.  If you can't sell your setting, then you're always going to sit back crying and wondering why no one likes yours as much as someone else's, and chances are, you'll come up with pretty silly reasons without looking at any logical or rational facts - human rationale can be funny like that.

[/off topic]