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Do you understand what "vanilla fantasy" means anymore?

Started by SilvercatMoonpaw, January 27, 2009, 12:01:50 PM

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SilvercatMoonpaw

Quote from: Phoenix....the original question seemed to be what does "vanilla fantasy" mean.
Actually the original question was "do you still recognize vanilla?".
Quote from: IshmaylThere are plenty of amazing settings on this site which are nowhere near a classic definition of dystopian.  And Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk, two of the biggest sellers in the entire fantasy world (I'm talking all RPGs here, not just D&D), are not dystopian.  Eberron really isn't either.  Getting a setting noticed is about being original and having a real story, and on top of that, being able to sell your story.  If you can't sell your setting, then you're always going to sit back crying and wondering why no one likes yours as much as someone else's, and chances are, you'll come up with pretty silly reasons without looking at any logical or rational facts - human rationale can be funny like that.
I consider any setting that sounds like it's about to fall apart to be a dystopian setting.  That includes Greyhawk and Eberron.

Also I would point out that "being original" is not as easy as it can be said to be: I've posted what I consider stunningly original content on this site, and no comments on it.  I'm not sure what conclusions to draw other than either I'm being too original and not tapping in to peoples' likes or that what I consider original has already been done and seen by other people and I'm behind the curve.
I'm a muck-levelist, I like to see things from the bottom.

"No matter where you go, you will find stupid people."

Elemental_Elf

Quote from: Gnomish Cheetosdid you write this setting?

The setting proposal, yes. Why is it bad/good/evil?

Quote from: KindlingIf your orcs are civilised merchant-wizards with a penchant for mathematics and complex musical compositions, then they're hardly orcs anymore, right?
If it looks like an Orc, smells like an Orc and tries to sell me Bach, I'd still call it an Orc.

Quote from: LlumI dunno about anyone else but I find the "setting" Elemental_Elf posted quite vanilla. I think I'm going to have to agree with SilverCat MoonPaw in that "dystopian" is now a fairly vanilla element.

I would also like to say that Kindlings mentioning of "vanilla with a twist" is still in essence a "vanilla" setting. Just with a twist... obviously

 Huh, that's weird... I blame 4E for making post-apocalyptic & dystopian a trope of Modern Vanilla.

Quote from: Scholarit's still vanilla, because it still fullfills all the criteria (five races, cultural stasis, european middle ages, OTT history, etc). sorry. the added dystopian theme is just the chocolate sprinkles on the delicious v-flavoured ice-cream. ;)
we should also add "no regard to "hard" demographic and/or geographic facts" to the list of vanilla tropes.

I suppose I like my vanilla Ice Cream with Chocolate Sprinkles then... Better Chocolate than Avacado :P

Also, I like the new addition, it definitely pulls WoW into the mix to a much larger degree.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawAlso I would point out that "being original" is not as easy as it can be said to be: I've posted what I consider stunningly original content on this site, and no comments on it.  I'm not sure what conclusions to draw other than either I'm being too original and not tapping in to peoples' likes or that what I consider original has already been done and seen by other people and I'm behind the curve.

I'm beginning to believe nothing is truly original any more and everything is just one of the 31 flavors of ice Cream with different colored sprinkles and other crazy toppings (like Gummy Bears).

~~~

 


SilvercatMoonpaw

Quote from: Elemental_ElfI'm beginning to believe nothing is truly original any more and everything is just one of the 31 flavors of ice Cream with different colored sprinkles and other crazy toppings (like Gummy Bears).
Except if it were ice-cream you could at least eat it yourself if no one else wanted it. :drunk:
I'm a muck-levelist, I like to see things from the bottom.

"No matter where you go, you will find stupid people."

Elemental_Elf

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpaw
Quote from: Elemental_ElfI'm beginning to believe nothing is truly original any more and everything is just one of the 31 flavors of ice Cream with different colored sprinkles and other crazy toppings (like Gummy Bears).
Except if it were ice-cream you could at least eat it yourself if no one else wanted it. :drunk:

But that would make you a sad fat person whose only means of reconciling his love of ice cream with the cold-hearted disapproval of his peers, would be to engorge upon more yummy ice cream, thus creating a very sad circle.  :cry:

Llum

Man I would love some Avocado Sprinkles...

I think dystopian being vanilla is more of a general trend in fantasy and science fiction in general then just a specific RP'ing thing.


Ishmayl-Retired

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawI consider any setting that sounds like it's about to fall apart to be a dystopian setting.  That includes Greyhawk and Eberron.

You may consider that, but those settings don't fall anywhere close to that definition.

"A dystopia (from the Greek δÏ...σ- and Ï,,ÏŒÏ'οÏ,, alternatively, cacotopia,[1] kakotopia, cackotopia, or anti-utopia) is the vision of a society that is the opposite of utopia. A dystopian society is one in which the conditions of life are miserable, characterized by human misery, poverty, oppression, violence, disease, and/or pollution."

Key words being "characterized by," meaning, "The vast majority of XXXX are in this particular situation."  Eberron is set in a period of technological and magical renaissance, and Greyhawk currently has more peace, goodwill, and prosperity happening in it than earth ever has.  You can say "I consider XXXX," but forcing a definition to fit into your pre-conceptualization of a word or subject matter isn't very logical.

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawAlso I would point out that "being original" is not as easy as it can be said to be: I've posted what I consider stunningly original content on this site, and no comments on it.  I'm not sure what conclusions to draw other than either I'm being too original and not tapping in to peoples' likes or that what I consider original has already been done and seen by other people and I'm behind the curve.

Once again, you're forcing definitions on a word based on what you think they should mean.  Just because you've posted "what you consider stunningly original content," has no bearing on whether or not it actually is stunningly original.  I have not read your work (not that that means anything, I don't read a lot of peoples' work, I'm pretty busy with other site-related issues), but my guess would be that your work was not as original as you thought it was, or you weren't able to sell it.  Selling something is important - Goodkind basically ripped off Jordan in his magnum opus, and even though I've not ever read a single original word in one of Goodkind's books, he's still somehow consistently at the top of the Best-Seller lists.  If you can't convince people that your work is worth reading, then it's not going to get read.  After that, the human rationalization I mentioned above starts kicking in.

[/off topic AGAIN ]

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Elemental_Elf

Quote from: SteerpikeSo again, vanilla is something that shifts, right?  It's totally relative.  Is this how it's being interpreted?  And in that case, is it any different from "popularity"?
This is why I believe Dystopian is not a vanilla concept. Its just a phase we're going through because the world around us is falling apart. A year from now, Dystopain will not seem trite because the current 'flavor of the month' will have moved on down the line.

So in essence, Vanilla and Popularity are related topics in the short term but in the long term are two different beasts.  

Llum

Dystopianism has been in vogue long before the recession. Historically speaking a more positive outlook appears in fiction when things in the real world are going to hell.

Quote from: SteerpikeSo again, vanilla is something that shifts, right? It's totally relative. Is this how it's being interpreted? And in that case, is it any different from "popularity"?

I believe they are interrelated, however they are not the same thing. Vanilla is "staple tropes" with little to no "exotic tropes" (discounting the *twist/sprinkles* which even then can be varying levels of exotic)

Currently distopian tropes are becoming less and less exotic, comming closer and closer to being "vanilla". I hope that helps clarify things.

SilvercatMoonpaw

Quote from: IshmaylYou can say "I consider XXXX," but forcing a definition to fit into your pre-conceptualization of a word or subject matter isn't very logical.
It was logical for me based upon what I thought the definition was.  I still consider any setting that seems mired in problems to be distopian, even based on the definition you gave.
Quote from: IshmaylOnce again, you're forcing definitions on a word based on what you think they should mean.  Just because you've posted "what you consider stunningly original content," has no bearing on whether or not it actually is stunningly original.  I have not read your work (not that that means anything, I don't read a lot of peoples' work, I'm pretty busy with other site-related issues), but my guess would be that your work was not as original as you thought it was, or you weren't able to sell it.
I'm confused: I said as much at the end of my paragraph, that possibly the content isn't as original as I thought.  So what are you trying to say to me here?
Quote from: IshmaylSelling something is important.....If you can't convince people that your work is worth reading, then it's not going to get read.
Well how do I do that?  No one's ever told me.

Also I consider "selling" to be wrong: people should read something because they want to read that sort of thing, not because someone hyped it.  You can provide a summary of the thing, but it should be free of any enticement.  Enticement is deception.
I'm a muck-levelist, I like to see things from the bottom.

"No matter where you go, you will find stupid people."

Elemental_Elf

Quote from: LlumDystopianism has been in vogue long before the recession. Historically speaking a more positive outlook appears in fiction when things in the real world are going to hell.

I disagree. There were definite dystopian elements to the creative arts but no more than usual. Recently though, there has been a real rise in Dystopian themes, especially in Sci-Fi... I still think its just a phase, like boy bands, that will pass soon enough, at least prior to4E's release which has spurred much interest into dystopian & post-apocalyptic themes thanks to its heavy handed 'points of light' concept.

brainface

Quote from: Elemental Elfi think we, as a group, need to better define vanilla with stricter criteria, if only to get a better sense of what truly is and is not vanilla.
I don't think that's really necessary (possibly especially since vanilla is assumed to be a negative trait? Having some sort of official checklist might be a bad idea :)). It's a very relative term, and this meaning isn't really ever going to hit the dictionary so ishmayl can't even quote us back on it.

You could probably make a definition using this thread as research though.
Vanilla Setting:
1: "any settings that have a Mid Middle Age Tech, Idealized Western Societies, Dwarves, Elves (in 1, 2 or 3 varieties), Orcs, Halflings and Humans"
2: a setting heavily influenced by fantasy tropes, possibly including dystopia
3: Any setting based entirely on pre-4e core fluff
Or whatever. It's not like dictionaries limit themselves to one definition anyway.


"The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire

SilvercatMoonpaw

Quote from: brainfaceJust because your contents original and awesome (i'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it is) doesn't mean it's gonna be read or commented on (i haven't because I only read these meta threads :P). I don't think it's meaningful to assume lack of comment means your setting isn't original, and the lack of comments doesn't mean your setting isn't good or worthwhile.
Do you happen to know what will get read?  Because I don't consider that my work's bad just because no one reads it, I just have to consider whether it's worth my time to write it down.  If no one wants to comment on it that's fine, but I don't see any other practical reason to write it out.
I'm a muck-levelist, I like to see things from the bottom.

"No matter where you go, you will find stupid people."

Llum

Quote from: SilvercatMoonpawWell how do I do that?  No one's ever told me.

Also I consider "selling" to be wrong: people should read something because they want to read that sort of thing, not because someone hyped it.  You can provide a summary of the thing, but it should be free of any enticement.  Enticement is deception.
I disagree. There were definite dystopian elements to the creative arts but no more than usual.  I still think its just a phase, like boy bands, that will pass soon enough, at least prior to4E's release which has spurred much interest into dystopian & post-apocalyptic themes thanks to its heavy handed 'points of light' concept.
[/quote]Recently though, there has been a real rise in Dystopian themes, especially in Sci-Fi...[/quote]

I just want to point out that there is a time delay between the ideas forming and getting released. Most of these things were created before the recession. I would also like to say that the rise in dystopian elements has being going on for longer then the last little while.

Finally once again I'm not speaking about just the RP market (I don't RP) but fiction in general.


khyron1144

I think vanilla can be interpreted as too obviously Tolkien-derived.  Tolkien has shaped the modern fantasy genre.

Obvious elements are:
One key artifact that the entire story revolves around.

Stout, dour dwarves with beards.

Tall, graceful magically potent elves.

Massive conflict between good and evil.



Dragonlance is fairly vanilla.

Strangely enough, Moorcock's Elric books could be considered Vanilla with dark overtones and dwarves dropped.

Discworld starts to diverge noticeably.  Dwarves are kept and even extended and played up (female Discworld dwarves have beards and gender is more or less an optional concept in a dwarf mine).  The one artifact is dropped.  Good and evil are not so clearly delineated (every Discworld bad guy is doing it for the best of reasons and almost all the nominal good guys are a little grubby).
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