Fantasy Demographics

[Xeviat]

I have been using an amazing article for building nations and settlements for my games for some time: Medieval Demographics Made Easy. One thing that makes this article difficult to use is that it is strictly "humanocentric". Many races would likely require a much different take; a traditionally forest dwelling race, like elves, wouldn't likely build massive settlements, while a subterranean race, like dwarfs, have the capacity to build vertically and would thus be limited only by the amount of food they could produce. I'd like to have a discussion about this topic, because it will likely help many designers on establishing norms and guidelines for populating their setting.

To make it of most use, I'd like to first focus the discussion on the typical fantasy races:

Dwarfs
Elves
Gnomes
Goblinoids
Halflings
Orcs

One number that is of fundamental importance: The linked article above states that the typical amount of people one square mile of settled, arable land will support 180 people. So the traditional fantasy races may face some problems because of this:

Dwarfs live underground in most settings. Sunlight is required for farming, so food produced underground is going to probably have to be livestock (which need to be fed too) and fungi (mushroom farms might be possible, I'll check around for growth rates of edible mushrooms).

Elves typically live in the forest, and are generally known for "living with the land". Chopping down trees for farmland is probably out of the question, but maybe cutting down trees to plant orchards (fruit or nut bearing trees) wouldn't be. I could imagine elven "farms" simply being regions of the forest where all of the trees bear fruits and nuts, perhaps scattered around so when one tree isn't bearing fruit this season another is.

Gnomes would vary based on the type of gnome your setting uses. If you're using the more traditional urban tinkerer gnome, they'd probably be able to utilize human numbers (though you could get away with multiplying the number of gnomes a square mile could support by 4, since that's the standard amount of small creatures that can be fed by a medium-sized creature's food and water). The 4E version of the gnome, a fey that lives in burrows, might be more similar to elves.

Goblinoids could probably use human numbers for actual settlements. Hobgoblins are the typical "civilized" goblinoid, and I see no reason why they'd be that different from humans.

Halflings traditionally have a lot in common with gnomes. The only difference is that halflings seem to be less likely to make actual cities, so maybe halflings should be limited to towns and villages.

Orcs would probably lack settlements all together, living in village sized nomadic groups. The lack of agriculture would severely limit their population density.

As for some stranger things:

A theoretical aquatic race would be limited by the food production of the ocean shallows. If they could actually live in the water, they could possibly live on the entirety of the continental shelf; I don't believe a race of people could really live in the deep ocean since deep ocean waters are rather sparse of ocean life, IIRC.

Thoughts and ideas?

[Cheomesh]

You know, I originally ran some numbers for my campaign setting to figure out just how much grain I would need to grow to feed my people, and produce extra for trade.  My numbers where flawed to begin with, but I arrived at a somewhat acceptable number.

My studies into the middle ages have proved a little useful, but most of it directly relates to weapons (did you know it takes 3 pounds of charcoal to smelt one pound of ore?).  I do know a few handy things relating to agriculture, like the fact that 7kg of fodder makes 1kg of beef.  I also know that in medieval Norway, eating a lot of beef was a sign of hard times, as you had to kill your milk producer to get it.

I'll read your article and give you better feed back when I am able.

M.

[Loch Belthadd]

I would think that humans would be fairly realistic.
Dwarves might have above ground farms in valleys and such.
Elves would have gardens, and orchards.
gnomes would probably be like humans.

[Loch Belthadd]

Also remember that things aren't realistic. Dwarven livestock could actually be large cave lizards, or something.

[Cheomesh]

That article also motivated me to figure out just how big my place is.

The paper I drew my rough map on is 8.5 x 11.  Each inch is 10 miles.  They're coastal, though, and there's mountains.  Roughly, I have 3,938 square miles of land :|

1 city, what looks like 3 towns, 7 villages, a hamlet, and a thorp.  Maybe I *should* scale things up and try to work more places in?  I've been adding locations, but the thing is that the more I add, I want to involve them somehow so I create more work for myself, further delaying my debut.

Blargh.

M.

M.

[Xeviat]

Oh yeah, I'm not striving for total realism, but when something is realistic it makes it easier to believe. If you have a city full of a million people and just outside of it is untamed wilderness, some inquisitive player's going to ask where their food comes from. "A Wizard did it" will only fly for so long.

A while ago I realized that Dwarfs wouldn't be able to grow the wheat and hops they need for their beer unless they grew it above ground. Then I started imagining the grain trade they'd participate in, selling metal and crafts for the grain they need to brew their famous beer, which they then sell. In my own games, my dwarfs don't see what the big deal about alcohol is, since their resistance to poison makes it quite difficult to get drunk, so I don't have to worry about that paradox.

[Stargate525]

A while ago I realized that Dwarfs wouldn't be able to grow the wheat and hops they need for their beer unless they grew it above ground.

'Cept you don't need wheat and hops for beer, simply a starch and a seasoning. Wheat and hops happens to be the most common in reality. I could easily see a cave-moss beer seasoned with extract of mushroom. It doesn't sound particularily appetizing, but...

[Ghostman]

Dwarfs live underground in most settings. Sunlight is required for farming, so food produced underground is going to probably have to be livestock (which need to be fed too) and fungi (mushroom farms might be possible, I'll check around for growth rates of edible mushrooms).

I think your best bet is to come up with fantasy species of 'shrooms that grow fast, big and allow a decently balanced diet with only small quantities of other ingredients needed. It's also worth keeping in mind that since the invention of agriculture, mankind has applied selective breeding to the crops we grow on our fields, resulting in ever more productive strains. There's no reason for mushroom-farming dwarves to be any worse at it.

Elves typically live in the forest, and are generally known for "living with the land". Chopping down trees for farmland is probably out of the question, but maybe cutting down trees to plant orchards (fruit or nut bearing trees) wouldn't be. I could imagine elven "farms" simply being regions of the forest where all of the trees bear fruits and nuts, perhaps scattered around so when one tree isn't bearing fruit this season another is.

Swine herding would be one of the best ways for them to produce food in a forest environment. Whether or not you want your elves to be swineherds and eating mucho pork is a different question :-p

[Polycarp]

Dwarfs live underground in most settings. Sunlight is required for farming, so food produced underground is going to probably have to be livestock (which need to be fed too) and fungi (mushroom farms might be possible, I'll check around for growth rates of edible mushrooms).

Elves typically live in the forest, and are generally known for "living with the land". Chopping down trees for farmland is probably out of the question, but maybe cutting down trees to plant orchards (fruit or nut bearing trees) wouldn't be. I could imagine elven "farms" simply being regions of the forest where all of the trees bear fruits and nuts, perhaps scattered around so when one tree isn't bearing fruit this season another is.[/quote]

The predominant theory I've heard for human subsistence in the Amazon was orchard-planting within the forest itself.  Charcoal was used to make the otherwise poor rainforest soil into a much more productive material, and the orchards were apparently grown right into the forest.  Some pruning or even logging might be needed to allow some sunlight to reach the new saplings, but clear-cutting is hardly necessary.

[Xeviat]

Cool guys, some good ideas here.

[Elemental_Elf]

A while ago I realized that Dwarfs wouldn't be able to grow the wheat and hops they need for their beer unless they grew it above ground. Then I started imagining the grain trade they'd participate in, selling metal and crafts for the grain they need to brew their famous beer, which they then sell. In my own games, my dwarfs don't see what the big deal about alcohol is, since their resistance to poison makes it quite difficult to get drunk, so I don't have to worry about that paradox.

Lets not forget about Trade. Humans can grow the food the Dwarves need and in exchange the Dwarves provide the humans with all the metal works they require. Baring Trade, one could postulate that, has has been stated, underground flora and fauna would have to be used, especially Mushrooms, mosses... That's an interesting idea, if the Dwarves were able to create pockets of sun lit areas with in their holds (via shafts and mirrors), they could grow things like Potatoes and Carrots!

Halflings traditionally have a lot in common with gnomes. The only difference is that halflings seem to be less likely to make actual cities, so maybe halflings should be limited to towns and villages.

Orcs would probably lack settlements all together, living in village sized nomadic groups. The lack of agriculture would severely limit their population density.

I find these two interesting. Both races are very nomadic in traditional literature the difference beinge one is a nomad of the wild and the other is a nomad of civilization. I've never seen Halflings as a race that would ever have their own lands, let alone their own city. They wander other people's civilizations making due via bribery, gambling, theft and other seedy means. Orcs, on the other hand I would see as the consummate Pastoralist except with out the horses. They wander the outer reaches of the 'civilized zone' attacking, looting but also trading when the need arises. I could also see them with flocks of goats and sheep, not unlike those in the bibilical stories. Of course Orcs also have a penchant in traditional fantasy for being the race that constantly breeds well above sustainability and thus are forced to go on great sprees of looting every few years just so the Orcs can feed their babies. Huh, in that light Orcs seem more tragic than evil...

At any rate those were just a few ideas that sprang to mind, hope they helped.

[Xeviat]

There's a problem with humans growing dwarfs food: that means humans need to be growing a surplus in order to have enough to trade to dwarfs. If humans live on the planes like they typically do, they might have enough surplus grain to sell (something that frustrates me in Civilization games, that I cant send surplus food from one city to another).

As for your thoughts on Orcs, I really like that. Orcs in my game aren't evil with a capitol E (they're a half-blood between the Oni of my world and Humans, just like Elves are a half-blood between Sidhe and Humans). I really like the idea of them as nomadic herders.

When you look at why a race would be the way they are, lots more depth can be brought to them. Thanks E_E, you gave me a new look at Orcs for my world.

[EvilElitest]

Lol, i applaud the idea.  Through wouldn't magic make things a little different

[Xeviat]

It depends on what kind of magic there is in the system. Some systems, like 3E D&D, have spells for everything; if someone in the world would use it, there's a spell for it. In 4E D&D, though, non-combat spells were turned into Rituals and only the ones that are used by players were published: a "water the plants and watch them grow" ritual wasn't released.

I, for one, think magic would probably be similar in ends to modern day breeding of crops/farm animals and modern day pest control. It would push the maximum arability of the land up, and you might be able to squeeze a few more people per square mile of farmland.

[Cheomesh]

Kapn, could you take a look at my setting thread here:  http://thecbg.org/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?63323.last

And tell me if I'm going about it the right way?

M.