Grappling Option: Straight to Pin

[Raelifin]

I wanted an option to grab someone into a pin with one move so I propose this variant:

[ic=Option]You may attempt a pin instead of dealing unarmed damage as part of your initial grapple. Your grapple check to pin is at a -4 penalty and if you fail, so does the grapple.[/ic]

Balanced?

[CYMRO]

I vote for balanced.

[Raelifin]

Sweet. I thought I'd share the thoughts of one of my... erm, players.

Raelifin: Balanced?
Player: No.
Player: A pin is supposed to be difficult to attain.
Player: The penalty would be epic or limited to big creatures capable of performing a smashing grab, -20.
Player: Compare to Improved Grab.
Raelifin: Erm, it effectively grants an additional attack with a penalty that has a price for failure.
Player: Pinned creatures are helpless, and can be coup de graced, aren't they?
Raelifin: SRD: Pinned
 Held immobile (but not helpless) in a grapple.
Player: All right...
Raelifin: All it takes is a successful attack.
Player: -4 seems too low, I'd say -10 and add a feat for characters with Improved Grapple to lower it to -4.

[CYMRO]

Is your player suffering from compleciphobia*?




*fear of grappling.  

[Poseptune]

Seems fine to me. Another Vote for balance.

[Epic Meepo]

The content of this post is Open Game Content, as defined in the Open Game License version 1.0a Section 1(d).

I'll have to play devil's advocate here and vote "redundant."

It would seem to me that a character can already pin someone in one move; there's no reason to require each individual grapple check to count as a seperate "move."  In fact, the Cleave feat pretty much demonstrates that you can make two attacks as part of one "move," since it can represent a single swing of a weapon hitting two different opponents.

[Raelifin]

Erm, I was speaking mechanically. I agree with you, which is why I proposed this variant.

[Epic Meepo]

The content of this post is Open Game Content, as defined in the Open Game License version 1.0a Section 1(d).

My point was merely that the variant only serves to make pinning someone very easy.  Pinning someone in "one move" is already mechanically possible without it.  (It takes two "rolls" to make the pin, but that's still just one "move.")

Of course, if your main objective was to make it possible to have a character grapple someone with the character's player only having to make one "roll," that's entirely different.

[Túrin]

Somewhat like what Epic Meepo said (yay for removing the underscore! ;)) I'd like to point out that, if you have a BAB of +6 or higher you can already attempt to pin someone immediately after grappling them with your second attack, at a -5 penalty. Allowing the move to be made at once (thus in effect granting you an extra attack action) should thus have a penalty larger than -5 IMO. That is assuming the original rules are balanced.
Turin

[Raelifin]

Ah, I see.

Yes, I know that a character with a high BAB can, in fact, grapple and then pin. However, this option is not available to most characters under level 8-9 and so I believe that there is reason for my option, though it may be a bit redundant.

As for it granting an additional attack, I'd like to state that it 1) replaces damage, 2) has a -4 penalty which is quite close to a -5, and 3) has a much greater price of failure. I wouldn't be opposed to increasing the penalty to -5, but odd bonuses and penalties in combat options just seem strange.

[Epic Meepo]

The content of this post is Open Game Content, as defined in the Open Game License version 1.0a Section 1(d).

I'm not so sure there should be an option for immediately pinning someone available to people without a +6 BAB.  A +6 BAB bonus is something of a rite of passage for any character looking to call himself an accomplished combatant, and fledgling combatants shouldn't be able to do everything that veterans can.

[Xeviat]

Raelifin, it seems reasonably balanced, as long as they retain that -4 penalty to their grapple checks for the whole round. But, it doesn't make sense visually or realistically; grabbing someone and pinning them right away is difficult.

For example, if you were to sneak up on someone and try to snap them into a choke hold, that takes a lot of skill. Typically you grab and have to wrestle your target into a hold.

I do think the grapple rules need a few adjustments, though. For instance, how would you mechanically represent a tackle, when one person runs at another person and drags them to the ground, falling prone with them. Is this a charge+grapple? How are you dropping them prone? Is it a charge+trip? Why do you fall then.

Such is grappling.