Eschaton

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I will be updating the first post with the following table of contents. I will probably not continue to edit the list on this post after today. These are links only to non-stub pages.

[spoiler=Eschaton Contents]
Main Page - overview
Atlas - maps

Encyclopedia
Spirits - named spirits

Agni[/list]

Caen[/list]

Kroni[/list]

Prithvi[/list]

Sophia[/list]

Theletus[/list]
People - people in the setting

Anann[/list]

Arcturus[/list]

Deucalion[/list]

Faridun[/list]

Imana[/list]

Ishmael[/list]

Kapila[/list]

Mulciber[/list]

Ninsun[/list]

Perseus[/list]
Places - locations

Logres[/list]

Valland[/list]
Things - items and features

The Abyss[/list]

The Blades of the Circle[/list]

Gungnir[/list]

Mistletoe[/list]

Orichalcum[/list]

Pandora's Box[/list]

Royal Road[/list]

Tarnhelm[/list]

Time Chambers[/list]

Wave Sweeper[/list]

The World Tree[/list]
Organizations - power groups

Amplius Viri[/list]

Angels of Vengeance[/list]

Atlantean Empire[/list]

Conclave[/list]

House Bors[/list]

House Gawain[/list]

House Lancel[/list]

House Lionel[/list]

House Lucan[/list]

House Palamedes[/list]

House Pellinore[/list]

House Tristram[/list]

Inquisitors[/list]

Triumvirate[/list]

Vatian Empire[/list]

Watchers[/list]
Cosmology
Planes - levels of being
Magic - supernatural power and its users

Sociology
Cultures - the 22 cultures

Anannites[/list]

Mulcibites[/list]
Religions - faiths

Druidism[/list]

Vates Church[/list]
History
Cosmogony - creation
Prior Eras - earlier versions of the Earth
Golde Age - time of Atlantis
Silver Age - time of the fae
Bronze Age - time of heroes
Iron Age - modern age

Bestiary
Spirits

Primordials[/list]

Cosmic Beings[/list]

Fae[/list]

Ghosts[/list]
Monsters

Chimera[/list]

Griffin[/list]

Mutant[/list]

Sea Monster[/list]
Mortals

Atlanteans[/list]

Giants[/list]

Siddha[/list]

Therianthropes[/list]

Undead[/list]
Lore
Glossary
FAQ
Inspirations
[/spoiler]

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Bana aka Ares

[note=Bana]Bana is one of the forty Primordials--the most powerful beings in existence.[/note]
Bana is the devil of war, the bringer of slaughter. He was one of the first to join Kroni. Though many worship him as a war god, most realize his nature is one of destruction and chaos. He incites war wherever he can, not just to suit the ends of the Abyss, but for its own sake--he revels in the death. As such, he has a competitive relationship with his female counterpart Dhumravati. He remains closer allies with Nirrta and Nirrti than even Kroni. In Kroni's absence, Bana has stepped up to via for control of the forces of the Abyss, though some believe that if any other can seize power, it will be Nirrti.

Aliases: Esus (Anannites), Cariocecus (Listeneise); Chiha Yo Changgun (Dangunites) Ares (Deucalites) Aeshma (Faridites) Zaba (Hanwasites) Ilmaka (Ishmaelites) Bana/Vairochi (Kapilites) Ku-Kali-Moku (Lalahites) Moloch (Melkarites) Ogun Edo (Morimites) Mars (Mulcibites) Mahren Auxmite (Mulindwites) Mahes (Neithites) Tursus (Paivites)
Kovas/Svetovid (Ugunsmatites)

------

In other news, I tried reformatting the Atlas and Places page into a single page. I'm trying the look without the blue content box. I'm interested in opinions on the aesthetic.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Devils
[ooc]I finished detailing the seven devils. I feel like maybe I should say something else about some of them, but it seems hard to say much about non-physical eternal beings that act mainly through others. I included the example of the writeup for Bana (aka Ares), from the post above, and for Nirrti, so called "Queen of Hell." Thoughts?[/ooc]

Kroni (Ahriman, Crnobog, The Dark God, etc.)
Avatar of the Abyss, Lord of Darkness, ruler of all demons and devils. Currently AWOL.

Bana (Ares, Esus, Moloch, Tursus, etc.)
Bana is the devil of war, the bringer of slaughter. He was one of the first to join Kroni. Though many worship him as a war god, most realize his nature is one of destruction and chaos. He incites war wherever he can, not just to suit the ends of the Abyss, but for its own sake--he revels in the death. As such, he has a competitive relationship with his female counterpart Dhumravati. He remains closer allies with Nirrta and Nirrti than even Kroni. In Kroni's absence, Bana has stepped up to via for control of the forces of the Abyss, though some believe that if any other can seize power, it will be Nirrti.

Dhumravati (Agrona, Bellona, etc.)
Female war devil.

Diti (Ate, Likho, etc.)
Female plague devil.

Hardual (Pallor, Resheph, etc.)
Male plague devil.

Nirrta (Dispater, Orcus, Nergal, Belial, etc.)
Male death devil.

Nirrti (Hekate, Hel, Erecura, Belili, Ereshkigal, Allatu, etc.)
Nirrti is the devil of death, the so-called Queen of Hell. With Kroni's absence, she is the leading contender to become the ruler of the devils, though she would risk much to stake such a claim. She is deeply involved with her male counterpart Nirrta, though whether their relationship could be called love is debatable--it is perhaps as devils might come to the emotion. She depends on his power and influence, but everyone realizes she is now the most influential of the two. She delights in the physical and mental torture of both the living and the dead.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

The write up pages for all 40 Primordials are done. See the list: here

(7 Devils from previous post, plus 33 archons)

The list also includes write ups for 3 aeons (Theletus, Sophia, and Caen).

[Matt Larkin (author)]

So I've been thinking about some potential changes to the setting.

The first I'm pretty sure I want is that cosmic beings and Primordials will no longer be able to manifest (generate a physical body from nothing), they have to inhabit existing matter (i.e. possess someone).

The only real trouble here comes in the titans/Watchers, who were manifested angels. I can say that they possessed human hosts and those hosts gained the power to change size, though.

Aeons, are a secondary problem, as usual, as they were supposed to manifest as as different things, including the phoenixes. Also, they can't (currently) possess anything, only manifest. And they actually have physical forms which can be killed.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

[note=Horse]
I got your PM. I'm not able to respond, or rather it doesn't show up as sent. Maybe it's the apostrophe in your name, I don't know.[/note]
[ic=Potential Revisions]
1. Cosmic Beings (angels/demons) and Primordials (archons/devils) cannot form bodies, only possess them.
Pros
-This to me makes the entities a little darker, a little more mysterious
Cons
-Titans were supposed to be manifested angels (possible solution is that they possess a human and then can change size using a siddhi)
-Aeons manifest at several times in history, including as titans or phoenixes, and their physical forms can die, unlike angels/demons

2. All spirits are incorporeal and can interact with the physical world only through manifestation
(A major, major change). Instead of the intricate underworld I've been developing, spirits would exist on the astral plane. Genius loci would literally be physical places on Earth, but appear as "people" on the astral plane (For example, you could meet Mount Everest).
Pros
-Thematically, I think it fits the darker tone of the world
-It creates a setting I think will be more original--one where a dwarf, for example, is the literal spirit of a mountain or stone, but can only interact directly by possessing someone
-It makes the role of Mediums more clear, if they can see any spirits by seeing the astral plane
-Inquisitors might become more interesting, focusing more on the exorcism aspect
-Ghosts make a little more sense
Cons
-The work I've done on the underworld is wasted, and I have to find another way to incorporate those mythical places. I lose the cool aspects of the underworld.
-It prevents any kind of stories about sojourns into the Otherworld
-I have to rewrite history (though a history of possessors and so forth could be interesting)
-I have to rethink most fae

It makes it harder to write interesting spirits, if they are non-physical

I have to rethink where siddhas come from (they were children of humans and fae)

There is no good place for dragons

There is no good place for centaurs and other hybrids, nor for metamorphs

-There is no good place for monsters
-Giants have to exist on Earth
-I lose the possibility that mortals are reborn as fae and vice versa, a kind of neat cycle
-I lose Tartarus, I necessary prison for the titans and a necessary part of the story

3. I had been thinking I wanted to revise the magic system. Tillumni gave me an idea of saying that using chakras could burst blood vessels, causing bruising or internal damage. While I hadn't seen much that indicated chakras were tied to blood, they are tied to the endocrine system, which transmits via blood vessels. So this could be a part of a strong revision.
Pros
-Magic has a physical cost beyond the abstract loss of lifeforce
-Magic can create a visible effect to draw attention from Inquisitors (this is awesome if everyone with a bruise is suddenly under suspicion)
Cons
-I still feel like I need to rework things just a little to make the system as a whole suitable for use in fiction (this is only a partial solution)

4. I had in my notes that maybe lycanthropy should not be contagious. Not sure why I wrote that down to consider--though in old stories shapeshifting is not usually contagious--that seems to be a more modern contrivance.
[/ic]

[Matt Larkin (author)]

1. The Aeons are sufficiently different that I think they could still have the ability to manifest a physical form, as opposed to the other Cosmic Beings, this would also help differentiate them. Making them more unique, at the moment they are quite similar to other cosmic beings.

I also don't see how this makes it *that* much darker.

3. I really really like the magic system in Eschaton, one of the best I've seen IMO. That being said, I don't think this change would detract from it.

However, it would really make me rethink the combat effectiveness of the Chakras if your wounding yourself to use your powers.

I also don't think that the Inquisition would go after everyone with a bruise. Bruises are fairly easy to get (especially back at the turn of the millenium, no fancy protective gear) and even with armor your going to get a ton of bruises from combat (if you survive).

The other thing, it would be *incredibly* easy to frame someone. Beat them up, and be like "They used chakras! Look at the bruises!"[/quote]4. Makes sense, although how would lycanthropy propagate then? Through Bloodlines? Ritual?[/quote]
Bloodlines, yeah. That's how it originally worked, then when it became a curse and were-beasts could no longer control themselves, it could be spread through saliva or other body fluids.

I can't remember why I wrote that note to myself about changing that, so I can't say if it was a good idea... x.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

So my current thinking is that 1,3 I want. 4 I don't think I want to change.

Not sure about 2 yet.

I'd love some more thoughts on any of these ideas.

[sparkletwist]

My thought on the underworld is, and I'm not sure how well this will work, but why can't it be sort of both? What I mean is, the "Underworld" doesn't necessarily have to be physically a place you can access via a cave or whatnot, but it can be a place where characters can materialize in essentially their real forms. Sort of a parallel world, pocket dimension, or something of that sort. It is a real world, in the sense that it obeys physics and whatnot, but it's also completely divorced and detached from the "real world" that the rest of Eschaton would take place in. If you link it to the real world, though, you can still meet places/things as people when you journey to this alternate world-- because it's a sort of mirror world, you'll see some things that are similar, but it won't be exactly the same.

I think this can allow you to take some of your pros without having to take the cons. For example, perhaps Mediums can see into this other world, without having to physically go to it. If we assume it's dangerous (I'm assuming it is), to be able to see what's going on without having to risk oneself by physically visiting would be a pretty big boost. The spiritual visitation can work two-ways, too, allowing you to get the "possession" aspect.

I like #3, too, just as long as you don't get to that moment that every fiction writer hates-- where your character's magic power is expended, and every reader is thinking "ok, he just ran out of MP" because of the way you presented it. I'm bad at this myself, so unfortunately I can't suggest anything all that useful to avoid it, other than to make the physical ailments suffered by mages subtle and varied, so there is no real "MP indicator" (like fatigue, or burst blood vessels, or any other single thing)  

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I like #3, too, just as long as you don't get to that moment that every fiction writer hates-- where your character's magic power is expended, and every reader is thinking "ok, he just ran out of MP" because of the way you presented it. I'm bad at this myself, so unfortunately I can't suggest anything all that useful to avoid it, other than to make the physical ailments suffered by mages subtle and varied, so there is no real "MP indicator" (like fatigue, or burst blood vessels, or any other single thing)  

does[/i] have the user burning mana (I use the Hindu "prana"). I'm ambivalent about changing this, both because I don't want to totally divorce magic from its realworld counterpart, and because several people have said they liked the system.

[sparkletwist]

However, without a direct parallel in the real world, I began to question what part of the spirit world a medium sees into. It is one thing when the faerie world mirrors Earth, but another when the geography is unrelated (and much more vertical, and also smaller). Does that make sense, or am I rambling?

But the fact remains, the basic writeup does have the user burning mana (I use the Hindu "prana"). I'm ambivalent about changing this, both because I don't want to totally divorce magic from its realworld counterpart, and because several people have said they liked the system.[/quote]
Yes, I see your point, and I do think you can do both. I mean, in real life, we burn up various bodily resources as we do things. We burn food energy during physical activity, and we also sweat and lose water, muscles get fatigued, and so on. I think the trick is that there's nothing that stands out like a little MP (or HP, or stamina, or whatever) meter at the bottom of the video game screen. I'm picturing two types of physical combat: one where the villain dies because he "ran out of HP" and the other because the hero struck a heroic blow and everything just looked cool.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

[ic=Galaad]Gold runs the world, of course. It makes kings, and it breaks them. Entire nations have destroyed themselves for orichalcum. The soulsteel can build an empire. Years in the Khemian desert taught me water can count for more than jewels. But there is a commodity worth more than any of these. Those with the Sight are more valuable than any good. The ability to see the future is the ability to win every battle, to outdo every foe. It is the power to tame the tides of history.[/ic]

Oracles, those with the Sight, are sought by all those in power. The Vates Church proclaims them not siddha, but the chosen of God. The siddha orders see them as brethren that can change their fates. And every noble, general, and entrepreneur great and small would sacrifice almost anything to control an oracle.

The Sight can reveal past, present, and future. And there is always a price.

[ic=Rudra]Precognition accounts for itself. The future is immutable. Time devours all things. Even hope. Even itself.[/ic]

[sparkletwist]

This is an interesting teaser, but I am hoping for more detail. :D

Is the Sight a new development? I didn't remember reading about it, but maybe I might have missed it. I'm curious how this is going to affect the history, as it seems like history is very important in this setting (perhaps even more so than most)!

For example, it seems like any sort of absolute prescience would be pretty overpowered and kind of free-will-destroying (which, admittedly, isn't as important because you're writing and not gaming, but still), so I'm assuming it's not just absolutely correct. Or maybe it's absolute, but with a sort of twist to it-- like, "what I see will come to pass, but not in the way you might think." Or do they only think they're correct all the time, but actually get it wrong?

Even if the person with Sight only sees possibilities, it is still immensely powerful, of course. Even more so if it allows sight of things that the person might not otherwise know.  That is, in addition to glimpses of the future, it is a sort of clairvoyance.

As another take on the aspect of possibilities, I'm actually thinking of the movie "Next." There, he could see possibilities, but he could see all of them, at once, instantly, and simply ran through them all until he found the best course of action. This seems to fit the "win any battle" part of your quote-- they go over plans of attack and whatnot until one seems to 'stick.'

They still might get it wrong, too, which I'd assume would make the people in charge none too happy. Though, that leads to my last question, with such immense power, why wouldn't they be the ones in charge in the first place?

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Great questions Sparkletwist. This may be why I need a consultant--I always run out of things to say about most topics too soon. I suppose it comes from always trying to keep my writing trim, and overdoing it.

I'm actually putting together a rambling collection of off-the-top of my head thoughts on why the setting is designed, which may help me decide what I can change and what I can't.

Oracles were always a part of the story, but previously a minor part. I had a couple of characters that were oracles, and people tried to use them, but it was played up less I now intend. They are siddha with the ESP siddhi (which I'll probably rename Sight, as it sounds more in line with the time period).

Is the Sight a new development? I didn't remember reading about it, but maybe I might have missed it. I'm curious how this is going to affect the history, as it seems like history is very important in this setting (perhaps even more so than most)!

For example, it seems like any sort of absolute prescience would be pretty overpowered and kind of free-will-destroying (which, admittedly, isn't as important because you're writing and not gaming, but still), so I'm assuming it's not just absolutely correct. Or maybe it's absolute, but with a sort of twist to it-- like, "what I see will come to pass, but not in the way you might think." Or do they only think they're correct all the time, but actually get it wrong?

Even if the person with Sight only sees possibilities, it is still immensely powerful, of course. Even more so if it allows sight of things that the person might not otherwise know.  That is, in addition to glimpses of the future, it is a sort of clairvoyance. [/quote]will[/i] happen. But as you say, it will often not happen how you think. The question is how you get there. Whether free will can exist in spite of determinism is the question many characters struggle with.

No one possesses perfect prescience in Muad'Dib sense (though in his case, that was merely a matter of seeing every possibility and how to bring them about). In Eschaton, the future already exists, and sometimes can affect the present. Many precognitive visions can become self-fulfilling prophecies.

Clairvoyance is a separate power, though I suppose there could be some overlap. I imagine Clairvoyance usually has more control and more range.

As another take on the aspect of possibilities, I'm actually thinking of the movie "Next." There, he could see possibilities, but he could see all of them, at once, instantly, and simply ran through them all until he found the best course of action. This seems to fit the "win any battle" part of your quote-- they go over plans of attack and whatnot until one seems to 'stick.'

They still might get it wrong, too, which I'd assume would make the people in charge none too happy. Though, that leads to my last question, with such immense power, why wouldn't they be the ones in charge in the first place?[/quote]
When are the people in charge ever happy?

Good question. There are not many of them. Within the Vatian Empire, the Church proclaims them prophets of God, not siddha (which are hunted down and eradicated). Probably if these people ceased to be useful and became a threat, this could change. Probably a similar situation exists elsewhere. Within siddha organizations, they often are in senior positions.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I am trying to reconcile some semi-exclusive goals in this setting. Figuring out how to do it and have it keep the tone I want is the hard part.

A way to incorporate all world mythology.

Enough divergence from typical fantasy to be interesting, without creating something that no longer feels like earth

I guess this is why I keep thinking about the underworld. I feel like what I've got going is interesting, but it feels like something that has been done before. The real world, the Otherworld. Basically two separate worlds. Of course, the underlying mirror theme has been done too...

But my feeling for a long time has been Eschaton is not the setting for civilizations of other races and so forth. Contrasted, I still want the mythical creatures found in the myths I draw from. So I tried moving them to the underworld (a kind of parallel universe).

But somewhere I struck on this idea that these creatures cannot exist on Earth except within a native creature. Hence they have to possess or otherwise inhabit a native. This struck me not only as something more divergent from the norm without totally casting aside the mythological source, but more in tune with the idea of keeping the supernatural subversive. These creatures don't come to Earth really, except by forcing their will on humans, and even then, you can't really kill them or stop them, only send them back.

But I keep vacillating back and forth on the issue.

I have considered, for example, the idea that ghouls are possessing spirits of cannibalism. Most people that become ghouls have invited the ghoul inside by resorting to cannibalism or other unclean practices.

By doing this with everything would mean losing some of the flavor of some of these creatures, among other disadvantages I mentioned in a prior post.