Friday Forum Philosophy - Week 8

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Week 8 (September 25th, 2009)
[note=Got and FFP Idea?]Send me a PM. Remember, we are discussing any topic relating to world design (but not system design), so fire away.[/note]
[ic=Philosophy Archive]
Week 1 - The Cost of Magic
Week 2 - Villains
Week 3 - Genre Conventions
Week 4 - Design Method
Week 5 - Characters
Week 6 - Theme
Week 7 - PCs in the World
Week 8 -  Religion
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Religion
How important is religion in your setting?

Do gods really exist? Are they really gods? Do people know they exist, or just believe?

Do you prefer distant gods when you play, or personal ones?

Do you like abstract or personified gods more?

Any other thoughts on religion?

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

How important is religion in your setting?

Usually not any, unless it's a cult serving as an antagonist or a religion in the context of dry, academic knowledge.  I just don't understand religion enough to deal with it as it needs to be, so I go for the secular approach.

Do gods really exist? Are they really gods?

I can go either way, but my personal preference is that either way I do it the "gods" are shown to be a lot less worthy of reverence.  Mostly because it's comedic and I like doing comedy, but also if gods really are worthy then they have power and enough knowledge to use it so that they don't screw up a lot and I actually like power to be inversely proportional to knowledge of how to use it and wisdom to use it effectively.

Do people know they exist, or just believe?

How about know they exist but don't know for certain they actually have power over reality?  That way you can have both.

Do you prefer distant gods when you play, or personal ones?

If they're going to be involved it better be personal.

Do you like abstract or personified gods more?

Personified.  I can't see how to interact with abstract gods, and interaction is most important to me.

[Lmns Crn]

Delightful topic!

Do gods really exist? Are they really gods? Do people know they exist, or just believe?

Any other thoughts on religion?[/quote]Many people miss the distinction between "religion" and "gods". Many people shouldn't.

[Nomadic]

How important is religion in your setting?
Mare Eternus has a heavy philosophical background, as such religion is a key part of what defines the world. Feuds and aid, alliances and wars, these things have all come about from time to time as a result of religion. In ME it is akin to a coin. One side brings out the best in people while the other reflects the very worst.

Do gods really exist? Are they really gods? Do people know they exist, or just believe?
Who knows, I won't say. Gods in ME are like gods in real life. You cannot prove or disprove their existence to others. You either believe or you don't.

Do you prefer distant gods when you play, or personal ones?
I am fine with either, both can provide a chance to craft their own form of story into a setting. Both are able to add depth to the story in their own way.

Do you like abstract or personified gods more?
Again either of them. I don't prefer any particular style of religion or religious being in a setting. Then again I have always had a focus on roleplay and how I can tell a story regardless of the materials I have to work with.

Any other thoughts on religion?
Yea... dwarves have some freaky gods (see: df)

[Xeviat]

Awesome. I'm glad we're mature enough to have this sort of discussion without angering each other. I'll try my best to push the boundaries. =P

How important is religion in your setting?
At the moment, religion is a large part of designing the cultures of my setting. One nation in particular is a Theocratic Republic, and at least four of the races believe firmly that they were created by the gods.

This segues nicely into the next topic.

Do gods really exist? Are they really gods? Do people know they exist, or just believe?
As a literature student with a focus on mythology, I believe that cultures are very much sculpted by their religions. I believe this would be immensely stronger in a world where the gods can be proven.

The gods really exist in my world, but they aren't really gods in the sense of omnipotent super beings. Like regular creatures, they can only be in one place at once. Many are restricted to single forms, while others have multiple representations.

The gods are simply the most powerful of spirits. Giant animals, elementals, fey, and even the spirits of the dead could be gods if their power grows enough. Their power is proportional to both the amount of worship they have and the importance of their physical form; the spirit of a mountain is stronger than the spirit of a hill.

Do you prefer distant gods when you play, or personal ones?
I like both. For my own setting, mine run the gamut of both. Not all gods have true priests, most are simply attended to by shamans (priests teach dogma, but most gods are not dogmatic).

Do you like abstract or personified gods more?
When I'm playing, if I'm dealing with personified gods I prefer them to be flawed like people (like the greek gods). Abstract gods should be misinterpreted more, and a world with abstract gods would have more religious tension.

My gods are more personified than abstract, but not all of them have humanized motivations (most don't). The Dragon of Fire, for example, just wants the proper respect he is due, and is locked in his power struggle with his brother the Dragon of Water. He doesn't have teachings in the normal theological sense.

Any other thoughts on religion?
Religion is a touchy subject. If you make religions in your world that are similar to real world religions, and then paint them in even a gray light, someone's going to be mad. I grew up in a Christian household, so I try to avoid making too many parallels to Christianity; my closest has been some elements of the Chivalric Church, but it also draws on Confucianism and older warrior's codes for inspiration.

Even as mature as I am, if something is clearly an allegory and is railing against something I believe, I'm going to like it a lot less.

[Steerpike]

How important is religion in your setting?

Somewhat important but not hugely so.  In CE religion mostly comes down to scattered cults and odd religions, but there are a few prominent churches (Striga, the Star Gods, the Order of the Weeping Lady, the Gibbering Godess' acolytes, and the lilix religion) who wield considerable power.  Since there isn't a single dominant religion most people having a passing, casual relationship with faith.  They probably believe in gods, but don't follow overly elaborate codes surrounding them (except for those that full under the purview of the above churches/theocracies).

Do gods really exist? Are they really gods? Do people know they exist, or just believe?

The gods probably don't exist, though some people might claim that they've spoken with/had experiences of deities.  Cosmic horrors, however, do exist - the monstrous beings that will be released during the Great Unfettering, and the demons, the beast-gods, the daevas, and the oneiroi.

Do you prefer distant gods when you play, or personal ones?

Sort of both.  I like personal gods of lesser power when there's an ambiguous line between "god" and "spirit" (like the gods of Princess Mononoke, for example) and distant gods when religion is concerned.  I've never been a fan of clerics being granted spells through

Do you like abstract or personified gods more?

Personified.

Any other thoughts on religion?

Not without creating nasty debates.

[Drizztrocks]

How important is religion in your setting?
Very important. It is the reason for many wars and governs many cities. Alot of the time priests are also nobles or on the High Council of cities. However, there are not many religions. But there are many different cults and philosiphies (some with questionable traditions) that can be found across the land.

 Do the gods really exist?
Nobody knows. It is just a religion, a creation story crafted by civilized people to explain their existence. But ancient artifacts, strange tomes and mysterious ruins all point to the natural world having contact with something supernatural at one time. And ancient traditions and legends also uphold these religions. But there is no hard evidence, and all religion is based purely on faith. But if that's so, where do the ghosts that sometimes appear come from? And what about those strange demons? They have to come from somewhere, right? (I'm trying to point out that its alot like the real world. Inconsistencies make it unclear of the truth, for both the religious and the athiest)

  Do your prefer personal gods, or distant ones?
 Distant, definatly. That way any beleifs the characters have are based on faith. Also, I don't like how in some settings the gods talk to mortals and interfere with them. In my setting, I would prefer for them to be completely distant and mysterious, or just powerful energies affecting the world in different ways.

   Any thoughts on religion?  
 Don't be offended by in game religions. Its a game, and if you're not mature enough to handle a religion mirroring your own or seemingly offending it, then you're not mature enough to handle a game where you actively kill things. I'm not meaning to be abrupt, and of course I would be offended if there was some religion that had its worshipers commiting rape or something horrible like that, i'm simply stressing the point that its a game, and should not be taken to seriously.

[limetom]

How important is religion in your setting?
Fairly important overall, though for various people have differing views, ranging from a devout believer, to an atheist, to a shaman in mystical ecstasy communing with the spirits, to the ambivalent.

Do gods really exist? Are they really gods? Do people know they exist, or just believe?
There are both gods as well as spirits.  The distinction is increasingly blurry as the power of a spirit approaches, but how, in what way, and why they are worshiped distinguish the two.  Religions that worship a deity or multiple deities are typically structured and organized, or at the least have a limited number of powers that exist.  Religions that "worship" spirits generally don't worship them at all; "revere" or "appease" would be better terms.  There is no limit to the number of spirits, and they are considered in being at least a large class of things, if not utterly pervasive.  These are generally unorganized.  Exceptions to both categorizations, of course, exist.

In my setting, humans are split in half as to whether they are a part of a religion that worships deities or reveres/appeases spirits; this parallels the real world modern/primitive distinction for religions (including the exceptions).  Giants, for the most part, revere/appease spirits.  Elves, for the most part, blur the line between the two, with a limited number of quite powerful spirits.

Do you prefer distant gods when you play, or personal ones?
I prefer slightly distant gods/spirits.  Many mortals might hold them close, but they are still a step removed from the mortal world.  Spirits may go as far to be completely alien, especially if they are the type that are "appeased," or among the most understandable, such as ancestor spirits who are to be "revered."  Gods run the gambit.

Do you like abstract or personified gods more?
I am ambivalent.  I like to mix it up.

Any other thoughts on religion?
As has been said by others, "religion" doesn't equal "gods."

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Vaguely related

[Nomadic]

Vaguely related

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[LordVreeg]

First response---earlier commentary
Earlier convo

Actually, looking through this was incredibly good in retrospect.

[sparkletwist]

I've seen Muslim women going around in hoods or whatever. They're really kind of on dangerous territory here. Granted, his "religion" is a bit more frivolous, but I don't think anyone wants to step on the land mine of dictating which religious views are "valid" and which aren't.

[sparkletwist]

I'll answer the actual thread, too. ;)

Do gods really exist? Are they really gods? Do people know they exist, or just believe?

Do you like abstract or personified gods more?[/quote]
Personified, probably, because they are walking around and all.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Though I once did have this idea of a world which had been pretty much ruined by the gods, a number of whom were contrite enough to agree to reduce their power and come down to live openly among the mortals (I assume those that didn't abandoned the world).

So in that case the answers are: Yes, they really exist, really are gods, and people know it, and are quite personal and personified.  The catch is that they aren't as powerful as one would imagine.

[Nomadic]

So in that case the answers are: Yes, they really exist, really are gods, and people know it, and are quite personal and personified.  The catch is that they aren't as powerful as one would imagine.

Sounds a bit like the Daedra from the elder scrolls.