Fantasy Progress Levels, AKA secret project #3

[Xathan]

I intend on eventually post this in the Post, hence the tone. Later posts will expand upon each Progress Level, providing mechanical information for them. I intend on making each Fantasy Progress Level itâ,¬,,¢s own little booklet, including new classes, monsters, technology, and magic. I intend also on making this information OGC upon its completion.

[note=Assumptions]This information assumes a DnD level of magic. For lower magic games, simply use the Progress Levels provided by d20 future, they work quite well. Furthermore, this system assumes that the Prime Material Plane behaves according to laws of physics similar to those in the real universe, with the notable exceptions of magic, psionics, and other variant energy sources â,¬' other than that, it is assumed that the main world orbits a star with other worlds, possibly with a moon or moons, and that solar system rests in a galaxy with other stars, which resides in a universe full of other galaxies. Space is accessible much like in the real world. Also, this system assumes a planar arrangement similar to what can be found in normal DnD. If either the nature of space or the planes is significantly changed, simply disregard that information.

The final assumption of the Fantasy Progress Level system is that the Fantasy Progress Level is applied globally. Notes on how to handle lower Fantasy Progress Levels societies existing within or near higher ones, or visa versa, will be handled in the expansion on each Fantasy Progress Level[/note]

Off and on we of the CBG have discussed creating a standardized system for posting settings. While such a system is a long way off, when the merits of such a system are still in question, it is undeniable that there must be some sort of standard means of categorization for settings. While some existing categories, such as genres, work fine, reading over the CBG it become apparent to me that the designations of â,¬Å"High Magic, Low Magic, High Tech, Low Tech, High Psionics, etc.â,¬Â are far too arbitrary to be used as a reliable ways of categorizing a setting. In hopes of alleviating this difficulty I present you with the Fantasy Progress Level system.

A Fantasy Progress Level indicates the state of technology, magic, and psionics in a culture. A Fantasy Progress Level assumes the three advance in tandem: in a setting where the level of psionics is higher or lower than the level of magic, simply use the text for psionics from a higher or lower overall Fantasy Progress Level. In general, the information in a Fantasy Progress Level is modular â,¬' a setting could have a technology Fantasy Progress Level of 1, a magic Fantasy Progress Level of 5, and a psionics Fantasy Progress Level of 2. However, the Fantasy Progress Level system works best when two of the three elements are on the same Fantasy Progress Level. In fantasy settings, it is quite common for civilizations to have varying Fantasy Progress Level, especially assuming the diverse amount of races with varying mental and magical abilities that is seen in most settings. In a setting where race or culture is more homogeneous, the Fantasy Progress Level for varying regions tends to vary much less. Each Fantasy Progress Level is written with humanoids, giants, and similar races in mind, though this could be applied to other creatures with interesting results: imagine, for example, a society of intelligent wolves that achieved an Fantasy Progress Level on par with humanoids.

[spoiler=Fantasy Progress Level 0: The Natural Age]

Fantasy Progress Level 0 is the lowest possible Fantasy Progress Level for sentient creatures to exist in. Many magical beasts live at Fantasy Progress Level 0 . A creature living in Fantasy Progress Level 0 exists as a hunter/gatherer, and has yet to make any notable advancements in technology â,¬' weapons are mostly thrown rocks to drive off predators or bring down game, food is eaten raw, and transportation is done on foot. Magic is mostly instinctive at this point, and spell-casting classes should be limited to the adept, and even then no more than one or two levels should be taken, with the exception of extremely rare individuals. Psionics at this point should only exist as wilders with only one level â,¬' any thing more beyond this is beyond the abilities of the natives of a Fantasy Progress Level 0 society. Since a Fantasy Progress Level 0 game would be difficult to play, and even more difficult to make interesting, Fantasy Progress Level 0 will not be expanded upon, and it is best used in a setting on an isolated culture the PCs encounter only rarely.

Characters in the Natural Age are not automatically considered literate, regardless of class.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Fantasy Progress Level 1: The Stone Age]

In the Stone Age, significant gains in technology, magic, and psionics occur. While still extremely primitive, the Stone Age features advancements such as stone tools, use of animal hide in clothing, armor, and construction, the taming of fire, domestication of animals, and weaving. Communication between tribes is very, very rare. Magically, the Stone Age features more advanced magic. While most casters are still adepts, sorcerers begin to appear, as well as some tribal shamans and witch-doctors, the forerunners to modern druids. (The knowledge required for druidic magic is still a ways off.) Psionics is still restricted mainly to wilder, as the structure required for a more advanced study of psionics does not yet exist. Any spell that requires materials that would be made by a craftsman as a material component, a concentration of metal ore, an experience component, or any material component with a GP cost is not available in this age.

The expansion to the Stone Age will, among other things, feature two new casting classes (the Shaman and Witch-Doctor), to show the limited knowledge of magic in the Stone Age, as well as rules for stone, obsidian, and bone weapons and armor, including expanded weaponry.

Characters in the Stone Age are not automatically considered literate, regardless of class.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Fantasy Progress Level 2: The Metal Age]

In the Metal Age, humanoids discover how to work and refine metals. The first metal used is copper, which is later alloyed with tin to form bronze, which in turn is used to refine iron ore. Although the level of refinement for steel is not yet possible, the common use of bronze, than later iron, changes the face of society and warfare. Agriculture is advanced heavily in the Metal Age, along with construction, which allows for people to gather into larger communities, eventually forming the first cities. The existence of cities also allows for specialization, giving rise to the first craftsmen, who can afford to focus on a single good. Developments in domestication and transportation, along with an increased permanence in location, means that communication between different regions becomes more and more common. Advancements in sailing allow for long range sea travel and exploration for the first time, as well as expanding areas of influence and making trade of large amounts of goods possible over long ranges.

Magic and psionics develop rapidly in the Metal Age as well. The emergence of cities lead to the first scholarly institutions, allowing for wizards and psions, as well as the first organized religions, giving rise to clerics. Ironically, this age also sees the rise of druids, who are able to concentrate their worship and knowledge well enough to develop their abilities. The first crude magic items begin appearing, though these are rarely more than magically enhanced weaponry, such as +1 swords. Most spell casters do not gain the ability to cast spells beyond level 4, as the research required for spells of this level do not exist. (Player Characters should be the only, or at least the main, exception to this rule) Spells that have an expensive GP cost, and spells with an XP cost, should not yet be developed.

[note=Chariots]Unlike the real world, chariots enjoy a longer usage in fantasy warfare, mainly for casters who require mobility but need to concentrate on their casting.[/note] The face of warfare is changed dramatically with the rise of technology and magic. Soldiers are armed for the first time with swords and metal armor and shields, while casters for the first time fling spells into combat, which forces generals to adopt new tactics. The phalanx is still an extremely popular maneuver, usually with a spellcaster or two in the center providing magical protection for the group. The emergence of chariots, combined with the taming of some more powerful magical beasts, allows casters a great amount of mobility on the battlefield. Wars in this age tend to be either rapid skirmishes between mounted soldiers on beast-back or chariots or slow affairs with sparsely packed groups men approaching each other, protected and assaulted by casters.

The expansion to the metal age will include, among other things, rules for bronze weapons, vehicles, including sea travel, lists of spells that should be available to casters, as well as new feats for combat.

Characters in the Metal Age are not automatically considered literate, with the exception of Wizards, Psions, Clerics, and Aristocrats.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Fantasy Progress Level 3: The Age of Emergence]

Societies in this progress level continue to advance in technology, developing further in the areas of agriculture, construction, commerce, transportation, and metallurgy. Printing is developed, which leads to an increase in both literacy and spread of information.

More to Come Later[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Fantasy Progress Level 4: The Age of Magic]More to Come Later[/spoiler]

[spoiler=Fantasy Progress Level 5: The Steam Age]More to Come Later[/spoiler]

MORE TO COME WHEN NAMED.

[spoiler=Level X]Fantasy Progress Level X refers to a setting that has an experienced an apocalypse. For example, if World Y was a Fantasy Progress Level 5, and had an apocalypse, it would be changed to Fantasy Progress Level X5. This designation lasts as long as a significant amount of the population directly knew someone who lived prior to the apocalypse. Apocalypses, both magical and mundane, will be discussed in detail later.[/spoiler]

[Poseptune]

This is a good idea. If each builder uses this for their settings it could make it easier to comment on the powerlevel or the flavor of some of the elements (Classes, Monsters and such). I know I've commented on a couple of classes and I was comparing it to one powerlevel while the author was thinking about a different one. It can definitely help keep reviewers on the same page as the builder. Now I'm curious about what your other two secret projects are.

[beejazz]

herm. too mean to low levels. too restrictive in the higher levels. a large part of the appeal of different technology settings is making a DIFFERENT technology setting... like one in which early science was dominated by breeding and medical advances (which might have happened were it not for the crusades)... or one in which synthetic substances (like vulcanized rubber) were discovered earlier, as steam power does not necessarily precede such things. Also, while the source of magic might vary based on cultural trends (wizards among the literate, psions among the monastic, druids among the tribal), the power of spellcasters doesn't always parallel the level of civilization. Furthermore, magic and technology are not the only impacts to consider. Combat styles vary wildly based on the available weapons and armor, as well as in response to current events like war... which can easily differentiate between fighting as an art, a sport, or simply a means by which to kill. Also skill lists. d20 modern skills, like repair and pilot, should be available or have equivalents (maybe a minimum of five ranks in ride allows one to pilot too, or maybe there's a class for that... while one could substitute a specific craft skill in repairs).

[Xathan]

I will admit, this is written for the least common denominator, and no one said this has to follow a chronological progression. For example, you could set the FPL of synthetic substances 3 higher than everything else in the setting, and while the power of spell casters doesn't necessarily mirror the level of society, if you want a different level, just give the society a higher or lower FPL for magic than for everything else.

Combat styles and impacts other than technology and magic, such as sports, are far too cultural in my opinion, and should be left up to the world builder. Other than that, most other problems you have with the idea can be solved by mixing and maxing different elements of the FPLs to create the desired result.

As far as skills, that going to be a DM call. A setting that has craft that require the pilot skill should make the pilot skill available.

[Lmns Crn]

I have my own concerns about a system like this, but you've mostly managed to mention them already as things you plan to address. Worlds with progress levels that vary from nation to nation are the obvious one, but it's worth thinking about progress levels varying from arena to arena as well. How does one really state with confidence that technology is progressing faster or slower than magic is within a culture? It doesn't seem to me that we have anything like a clear yardstick on what constitutes magical progress that's "in step" with the rest of society.

That said, I'm a fan of the idea. As you say, it adds much needed clarification to an existing system of vague adjectives, and as the progress levels crank up, it allows for a smooth transition from dawn-of-history level sophistication to super-futuristic things like ElDo's Stars Above setting. Your proposed system of gradations clearly illustrates the connectedness of things which have long been unfairly considered to be entirely seperate genres, and that's a valuable thing right at the start, even for someone who'll never actually use the system.

I like that the system is modular, and that you make it clear (in responses, as it perhaps ought to be in the original post) that you can look at one FPL for one aspect and a modified FPL for another (as in your example of synthetic materials.) My first question was going to be: how would this system deal with unusual distributions, for example, a setting where magic is high and spellcasters are common, but people rely almost entirely on innate power and magic items are very rare? Things like this are built into the system, where the system is used by someone who's creative and knows what they're doing.

My real issue with it is mainly a personal one: the strong distinction between magic and psionics. They've always struck me as two different special effects to apply to the more general idea of "Hey! I'm supernatural!", but the dichotomy seems firmly-enough entrenched into fantasy gaming these days that I guess I should just get used to it. Still, in a system as admittedly lowest-common-denominator focused as this one, drawing the distinction between one form of supernatural practitioner and the other seems needlessly hair-splitting. Though I guess it's necessary if the eventual plan is to add game mechanics for all these classes you're mentioning.

I really want to know more about your system for apocalypse, and how that affects FPLs across the board.

I'm also curious about the various ages you've yet to fill in. Specifically, what distinguishes the Steam Age and the Age of Magic from the others, besides advancement in technology and magic FPLs, respectively? Saying "Steam Age" has obvious imagery associated with it in terms of technology, but how does that FPL affect magic/psionics/etc.?

[Xathan]

I have my own concerns about a system like this, but you've mostly managed to mention them already as things you plan to address. Worlds with progress levels that vary from nation to nation are the obvious one, but it's worth thinking about progress levels varying from arena to arena as well. How does one really state with confidence that technology is progressing faster or slower than magic is within a culture? It doesn't seem to me that we have anything like a clear yardstick on what constitutes magical progress that's "in step" with the rest of society.

That said, I'm a fan of the idea. As you say, it adds much needed clarification to an existing system of vague adjectives, and as the progress levels crank up, it allows for a smooth transition from dawn-of-history level sophistication to super-futuristic things like ElDo's Stars Above setting. Your proposed system of gradations clearly illustrates the connectedness of things which have long been unfairly considered to be entirely seperate genres, and that's a valuable thing right at the start, even for someone who'll never actually use the system.[/quote]I like that the system is modular, and that you make it clear (in responses, as it perhaps ought to be in the original post) that you can look at one FPL for one aspect and a modified FPL for another (as in your example of synthetic materials.) My first question was going to be: how would this system deal with unusual distributions, for example, a setting where magic is high and spellcasters are common, but people rely almost entirely on innate power and magic items are very rare? Things like this are built into the system, where the system is used by someone who's creative and knows what they're doing.[/quote]My real issue with it is mainly a personal one: the strong distinction between magic and psionics. They've always struck me as two different special effects to apply to the more general idea of "Hey! I'm supernatural!", but the dichotomy seems firmly-enough entrenched into fantasy gaming these days that I guess I should just get used to it. Still, in a system as admittedly lowest-common-denominator focused as this one, drawing the distinction between one form of supernatural practitioner and the other seems needlessly hair-splitting. Though I guess it's necessary if the eventual plan is to add game mechanics for all these classes you're mentioning.[/quote]I really want to know more about your system for apocalypse, and how that affects FPLs across the board.[/quote]I'm also curious about the various ages you've yet to fill in. Specifically, what distinguishes the Steam Age and the Age of Magic from the others, besides advancement in technology and magic FPLs, respectively? Saying "Steam Age" has obvious imagery associated with it in terms of technology, but how does that FPL affect magic/psionics/etc.?[/quote]

The Age of Magic is the PL youâ,¬,,¢d put Eberron in, most likely, and probably Forgotten Realms, or at least some areas of it. The Steam Age usually emerges from big wars during the Age of Magic creating magical instabilities that cause people to develop alternate sources of power, and steam is developed first. (note â,¬' when I speak of how something emerges from another, that is always how I would handle it in a baseline setting, or in one of my own worlds, never meant to say how it should be handled in someone elseâ,¬,,¢s world.) In the Steam Age, magic actually hits a bit of a plateau, with most development in it being in the area of magical items, or magic that relates with Steam technology. I hope that answers your questionsâ,¬Â¦if not, please clarify, and Iâ,¬,,¢ll happily answer in greater detail.

[Jürgen Hubert]

A good idea in principle - but I'd prefer if "mundane technology" is kept out of the description as much as possible. Some settings have high technology but low magic (such as many "modern conspiracy" settings), while others have high magic but low technology (many D&D settings).

Perhaps we should use a little more detail for this. How about using two scales?

The first scale would be Power Level (PL). This would represent the biggest and most spectacular effects that mages can produce - best rated in what the post powerful mages can blow up.

- A match?
- A person?
- A building?
- A town?
- A large city-state?
- A country?
- A continent?
- An entire planet?

A second scale would be Societal Impact (SC) - this is to what a degree magic shapes and influences society. This can be best examined if you ask yourself: "What would happen if all practitioners of magic were to suddenly vanish from the world"? Possible answers would be:

- Life for most people would pretty much go on as normal.
- Minor problems, but society would eventually adapt (crop yields get reduced if no one is able to magically bless them, the rich can no longer gain access to healing or transportation magic, etc.)
- Major problems, and it will take a few decades until everone adapts (many parts of the economy and social structure are strongly dependent on magic, but most still don't and can continue to function as usual).
- Civilization collapses entirely (every part of society depends on magic).

A setting with high PL but low SI would be with very powerful mages, who nevertheless are rare and/or seclude themselves from the world at large. A world with a low PL and a high SI is where everyone knows a little bit of magic to do his job, but none of the effects are individually very powerful - it is their interconnection that makes them so effective.


Your thoughts?

[beejazz]

I think progress level should be divided up into its component parts, so that each element of technology, magic, etc. can be considered seperately. For exaple:

Chemical Progress: Describes processes from metallurgy to synthetics to alchemy. Has specific impacts on both mechanical and biological progress. Mechanical progress attributed to chemistry includes lighter, cheaper alloys in addition to possibilities like synthetic feuls, lubrication, and explosive powders. Biological progress attributed to chemistry includes poisons, pesticides, fertilizers, medication, etc. Magic progress attributed to chemistry falls mainly under the category of alchemy.

Biological Progress: Describes advances based on the understanding of living things, from surgery to breeding to medicine. Has specific impacts on other progress levels. Chemical advances attirbuted to biology include organic compounds ranging from poisons to medicine to adhesives. Mechanical progress attributed to biology...

And so on and so forth, with entries for chemistry, biology, and mechanics (plus whatever categories you divide magic into)

[Xeviat]

I don't think things need to be as complex as beejazz is suggesting; of course, such complexity would prove useful to those who require it, but I don't see it being useful to the more common settings.

I do like this idea very much, and I'll give as much assistance as I can. I do question why druids do not come about till the iron age; to me, druids represent "pegan" priests in European fantasy, and thus could be around before "organized religion" creates clerics. A druid worships the whole of nature, while a cleric worships a single deity or ideal. Druids would come first, in my opinion, because it lacks the studied and intimate connection with a deity, a being primitive people would not have been able to wrap their head around. Perhaps druid society isn't as well developed in the stone age as in the metal age.

When you said that each would be modular, I was expecting you to post Fantasy Progress levels for Tech, Magic, and Psionics separately. I believe that would be a better way to do things. Additionally, to allow those like beejazz to modify things more, expand upon the point you mentioned about detailing higher or lower Progress Level societies, or elements of a society, living in close contact with another; a society that has plastic, for example, is slightly more advanced Technologically than its neighbor, and thus relations would change.

This could prove very useful.

[Túrin]

Some good thinking going on here. I might drop in with comments on various things at various times, but for now there is one major point I would like to make, and it is about handling classes.

So far you are apparently trying to represent a certain level of magic (whenever I say "magic" read "magic and/or psionics") by limiting the standard DnD classes to the level you want, and presumably at the higher levels you will have them go into epic. This FPL-based "level cap" seems a bit strange: it seems to imply that when progression is at a certain level, it is impossible for people to become more skilled at a certain point; there is no more XP to gain. IMO, you shouldn't limit the maximum of what people can do but rather leave XP alone and scale the power level of the class. Admittedly, this would take a lot of time, but ideally you should have separate spellcasting classes for each FPL. So, at FPL 0 there will be no spellcasting classes. At FPL 1 there will be a Mage and a Shaman class (balanced against each other) who would (roughly speaking) have the BAB, saves, etc. of a Wizard and a Druid, respecitively, but would have spell progressions more like the Paladin and Ranger. The system for epic spells comes in handy here too: by doing his own research, someone of level 21+ could develop 5th level spells (or even higher) but they would cost lots of research GPs and XPs to obtain. Thus, we have a natural "limit of power" that feels much more realistic, and the XP system remains as normal (at any Progress Level, one will need to be level 21+ to develop magic beyond the standard of society at this time). At FPL 2, we have all the normal DnD classes, capping spells at level 9 but with the possibility of higher level magic for epic characters. At FPL 3, there would again be a set of all-new classes, that would gain access to relatively high level magic relatively quick, and would have non-epic spells of level 10, 11, etc. One class at this level might be the Archmage, with the BAB, saves, etc. of a Wizard, but who would gain access to 2nd-level spells at level 2, and to 20th-level spells at level 20. One would have to be level 21+ to research (with one's own GP and XP) 21st-level spells at this Progress Level.

So instead of saying:
A 5th-level wizard at FPL 2 is as powerful as a 5th-level wizard at FPL 1, except the latter don't exist because of an arbitrary cap

I say:
A 5th-level wizard at FPL 2 is more powerful than a 5th-level "wizard" (actually a Mage) at FPL 1.

This creates no game balance issues, because everyone in a society is obviously at the same FPL, so you will usually not encounter foes of a different FPL (except when FPL varies between nations, which might be interesting).

What do you think?

Túrin

[Xathan]

Ok, so I had a big long reply written up, but then I clicked the wrong button and it went away. Iâ,¬,,¢m gonna do a brief reply to everyone, then write up a more detailed reply later. If I miss a part of your post, Iâ,¬,,¢m sorry, but I will get to it later.

Jurgen: I like the social impact scale, and something like that would be easy to implement â,¬' I think I will make one, as soon as I finish with the FPL system. The power level is essentially what the FPL is, the difference is the FPL accounts for more than just mere explosive might.

Beejazz: That is interesting, but the main problem I see with it is twofold. First, as Xeviat said, it becomes too complex, useful only to those who need it. Second is the simple fact that I just donâ,¬,,¢t know enough about those things to incorporate it into this system. In my estimation, the FPL system gives you a good enough guideline â,¬' anything else should be up to the creator of the world. Plus, the more I put into the FPL system, the more rigid it feels: I donâ,¬,,¢t want the FPL system to become a straightjacket.

Xeviat: The reason for druids not appearing at first is because, in my estimation, the druidic tradition mandates a level of experience and, well, tradition that doesnâ,¬,,¢t exist at lower FPLs. The shaman class is going to be an obvious forerunner to the druid, showing where the tradition has its roots.

I think I will divide the three up, since that makes the most sense. In that case, for technology, I will probably just adopt, with some slight modifications, the PL system from D20 Future â,¬' technology will be left out of FPL, with the exception of Steampunk tech (which will have a slot) and magically enhanced tech.

Turin: I like the idea of separating them and eliminating the caps, since I agree, the caps are artificial. However, I want the classes to be balanced against each other for the most part â,¬' while a druid will be superior to a shaman, the shaman will have enough unique stuff that there is still reason to play a shaman. Also, in fantasy settings cultures of different FPLs interact all the time, so an obvious imbalance would mean a more advanced culture would have to great of an advantage. While it seems logical that a culture that is more advanced will be flat out more powerful, making that as blatant as just making the shaman a weak druid with nothing else is too great. Iâ,¬,,¢m going to give the shaman some spirit powers, which will pay homage to the druids wildshape, so even through the shaman will be a weaker caster than the druid, it would still be a viable option for a game set in a high FPL society.

I guess thatâ,¬,,¢s my main reason for wanting the classes to be balanced â,¬' I donâ,¬,,¢t want PCs who want to play a member of a lower FPL society to be unduly penalized, and I donâ,¬,,¢t want munchkins to automatically latch on to higher FPLs.  

[Túrin]

Whether or not you make the classes balanced against each other is your decision. My point was that I wouldn't like to see level caps in any form (not even when they don't apply to PCs), but would prefer new classes instead.
Túrin

[Xathan]

And I agree with that wholeheartedly, I just thought about it and decided the caps were arbitrary and just plain bad.

[Túrin]

Cool! Glad we agree. :)

[the_taken]

A referance to ideas as to what might be implied by Fantasy Progress levels. The Dungeonomicon. The entities that make up K are incredibly intelligent.

I think you should include a description of a society's progress level as well. Most published settings contain a progress level of 4 or 5 for magic and/or psionics and a progress level 3 intechnology, but the society somehow fails to emerge beyond progress level 2, sitting in isolational tribes and kingdoms.

I'd give examples by figuring out which published campaigns have what levels. For instance, a forgotten realms setting's drow campaign is probably at level 5 in magic and society, 0 in psionics, and 4 in tech, while your typical Eberron game is level 3 or 4. I'm only guessing as you haven't elaborated on 3, 4 and 5 yet.

Maybe when you're done, levels up to 10 or something can be done for those magical spaceship settings.