The Campaign Builder's Guild

Are you sure you don't think a "Spirit" type stat is a good idea? Otherwise you'll have warriors and mages displaying equivalent physical characteristics.

Also, DC-based skill checks sound like a good idea to me. Make the whole magic system somewhat equivalent to Epic-level spellcasting.

BTW. Anyone ever play Titan Quest? That game has a very good take on the whole "tech tree" concept.

Quote from: beejazzAnd... one more time...
WHY use points to cast spells?

Why NOT?

But seriously, it depends what kind of flavor you are wanting to give magic. I like the idea that casting spells is mentally taxing, casters vary in their ability to stand up to this, some spells are tougher to cast than others, and when you've exhausted yourself mentally, you need to rest your mind for a while to regain your energy. This lets casters use low level magic frequently, but if they start using high level blast'ems, they'll be committing themselves to some extended period of rest.

Given this kind of conceptual flavor, it is only natural to have some measure of how mentally tough a caster is (Mana Level), how tough a spell is (Spell Level), and have some kind of recuperation rate for the caster. Conceptually, it is not really a point system (you don't have a pool of mana that runs out, you're just getting mentally tired), but from a practical/mechanical standpoint, it is essentially indistinguishable.

If you want to use a simple N rounds recharge rate, no problem. But why would this be per-spell, or per-school? Does necromancy tax a different portion of your brain than fire magic? Are they using different kinds of energy from the surrounding area? Would that mean that a caster can get around recharge limits by moving far enough away to an area where the energy hasn't been depleted?

In my system, learning Fire Magic IV would mean gaining knowledge about fire. You'd still use all the same casting techniques, the same mana level, etc. A caster could choose to specialize in specific techniques (say, Creation or Transmutation) across many types of magic; or to specialize in one type of magic and many techniques.

In your system, maybe it is going to work differently. Necromancy just wouldn't have anything at all in common with Fire Magic. Different recharge, different spells, different skill/feat tree, no overlap at all.

You see what I mean? Choose a flavor or concept and let the mechanics flow from that. D&D 1e all the way through 3.5e is based on a mechanic that was apparently chosen to provide "game balance" with no thought to flavor or concept, and it really shows. Ultimately, that's probably my biggest problem with D&D magic - no real flavor or personality. Don't repeat the same mistake by putting the cart (mechanics) before the horse (concept).
</rant>

QuoteYou see what I mean? Choose a flavor or concept and let the mechanics flow from that. D&D 1e all the way through 3.5e is based on a mechanic that was apparently chosen to provide "game balance" with no thought to flavor or concept, and it really shows. Ultimately, that's probably my biggest problem with D&D magic - no real flavor or personality. Don't repeat the same mistake by putting the cart (mechanics) before the horse (concept).

Hence my beating the drum of making it all dependent on the spell.

Flavor-wise, should magic missile really be that taxing.  It is a simple power blast, once a round is not unthinkable if the base damage is in line with standard melee attacks.  
Wish, though, that should be a Ritual that is so draining it cannot be fired off like so many cheap blasting spells. Once a day, maximum.
Animate Dead, falls somewhere in between, depending on how the player has amped it up.
And so forth...

Quote from: ElrabinAre you sure you don't think a "Spirit" type stat is a good idea? Otherwise you'll have warriors and mages displaying equivalent physical characteristics.

Spirit stat?  Example please, and what would it do?

Quote from: ElrabinAre you sure you don't think a "Spirit" type stat is a good idea? Otherwise you'll have warriors and mages displaying equivalent physical characteristics.

That kind of depends on how useful it is to trade off character points spent on stats for ones used to buy special abilities, casting skills, or whatever.

BTW, I'd be in favor of having some kinds of abilities cost slightly less (maybe 10% less, maybe as much as 25% less) if you buy them at initial character generation. This would somewhat reduce the tendency for characters to gravitate toward similar skill sets. (Otherwise, at higher levels you might find that all characters will have bought up levels of all the cheap and useful low level stuff.)

Speaking of mental-like stats, what about knowledge and lore skills? Or any type of skill that currently uses a mental or personality stat? Will they just not be affected by stats at all? Will those skills not exist any more? Inquiring minds want to know.

@Nat's Recharge: I have recharge times decreasing for schools characters advance in. You have it increasing for higher level spells of that school. Rather
a)We do both: 1d4xspell level minus highest level you can cast. or..

b)Your lower-level capabilities scale in power corresponding to the highest level you can cast, keeping benefits equal.

c)We have a limited resource already here. Adding a second one to keep track of just complicates things. If it does not allow casters to circumvent recharge, they are too limited. If it does allow casters to circumvent recharge, recharge becomes effectively obsolete. Two systems simultaneously for the lose. Also, I don't like the idea of all spells drawing from the same pool. It just irks me.

d)If I was building strictly for FB, I would not have asked about biopunk/psychopunk elements. I would have asked about steampunk. I am fully aware that the goal is to create a new system.
@CYMRO: These spells need not run on the traditional schools. "Damage spells" "Healing spells" "undeath spells" These would probably be slightly more restrictive schools, and we don't even have to call them that. Point is supplements and variants can just write a new school tree no problem, y'know?
@Witch: Rituals have long casting time and/or require personal sacrifice. No need to limit them any further than that.

QuoteSpeaking of mental-like stats, what about knowledge and lore skills? Or any type of skill that currently uses a mental or personality stat? Will they just not be affected by stats at all? Will those skills not exist any more? Inquiring minds want to know.

I would assume you buy at character creation, or later, rank(s) in a knowledge skill.  Those ranks would be your only bonus to its checks.

Quote from: snakefing

Quote from: ElrabinAre you sure you don't think a "Spirit" type stat is a good idea? Otherwise you'll have warriors and mages displaying equivalent physical characteristics.

That kind of depends on how useful it is to trade off character points spent on stats for ones used to buy special abilities, casting skills, or whatever.

BTW, I'd be in favor of having some kinds of abilities cost slightly less (maybe 10% less, maybe as much as 25% less) if you buy them at initial character generation. This would somewhat reduce the tendency for characters to gravitate toward similar skill sets. (Otherwise, at higher levels you might find that all characters will have bought up levels of all the cheap and useful low level stuff.)

Speaking of mental-like stats, what about knowledge and lore skills? Or any type of skill that currently uses a mental or personality stat? Will they just not be affected by stats at all? Will those skills not exist any more? Inquiring minds want to know.

Ability bonuses to skills may not be necessary. Or, if manual dex (or its equivalent)takes care of attack rolls, str takes care of damage rolls, con takes care of hp, and gross dex (or its equivalent) takes care of dodging, I guess luck can be the generic bit for skills?

QuoteAbility bonuses to skills may not be necessary.

I'm hip to that.

Quote from: CYMRO

QuoteAbility bonuses to skills may not be necessary.

I'm hip to that.

No problem here. But then again, why have stats at all? Why not just buy save bonuses, BAB, damage enhancement, and dodging ability directly, and skip the middleman?

To supplement that, you could introduce some kind of Traits system, where you could spend points from your initial allotment to buy a Trait. E.g., Brute Strength trait, costs 10 CP or whatever, only purchase at initial generation, adds +1 damage enhancement and +1 on grapple checks.

QuoteAre you sure you don't think a "Spirit" type stat is a good idea? Otherwise you'll have warriors and mages displaying equivalent physical characteristics.

A Spirit stat would be useful for determining various parts of spellcasting once we get what we're doing with it worked out. Additionally, unless I've missed it somewhere, we still need a stat to govern mental saves, which I don't think Toughness really vouches for.

QuoteFlavor-wise, should magic missile really be that taxing. It is a simple power blast, once a round is not unthinkable if the base damage is in line with standard melee attacks.
Wish, though, that should be a Ritual that is so draining it cannot be fired off like so many cheap blasting spells. Once a day, maximum.
Animate Dead, falls somewhere in between, depending on how the player has amped it up.
And so forth...

This looks pretty reasonable. For Animate Dead and the like, maybe the amping of this is based on the points you have in the spell. 1 point is enough to get a small range of options for the undead you summon, and more points you put into it the more options you have available regarding VP/WP, attacks, physical form, etc.

As someone said before, it seems like a good idea to have low-level spells be used fairly easily and frequently, but higher-level ones cost much more and drain you much faster, or slow down the casting of other spells. I don't like the idea really of casting a spell and having to wait so many rounds to cast it again, unless that feature is part of the spell's mechanics themselves.

QuoteNo problem here. But then again, why have stats at all? Why not just buy save bonuses, BAB, damage enhancement, and dodging ability directly, and skip the middleman?

Mmmmmmmmm...

Well...


Oh yeah!
Because a set of stats means you can use those stats as a base for mechanics that might come up later.
Encumbrance, for example, is an important function of strength, yet it is almost an afterthought in the PHB.  

Yes... recharge as spell mechanic.
See the sys I put forth.
Advancing spell levels advances how often you can cast.
Casting higher level spells regresses how often you cast.
Mixing schools or having something to do between spells speeds things up.
Simple.
In any case, a failable skill check every so often that also drains points is just too much restriction!

1d4 per spell level. subtract the highest level you can cast.

if I've learned NECRO IV, and I want to cast a NECRO I spell, that's free.
if I want to cast a NECRO II spell, that's 2d4-4 rounds of wait. Usually nothing. Sometimes something.
if I want to cast a NECRO III spell, that's 3d4-4 rounds. Min0. Max 8. Average four or five.
and so on.
If I then learn NECRO V,
NECRO I: pretty much at will.
NECRO II: 2d4-5 before your next necromancy.
NECRO III: 3d4-5 before your next necromancy.
NECRO IV: 4d4-5 before your next necromancy.
NECRO V: 5d5-5 before your next necromancy.

You could advance pretty much indefinitely.

I vote...

Abilities. POSSIBLY a luck stat. POSSIBLY a spirit stat.

Recharge times. Easy-create-spells, which increase the recharge time of themselves, but depend on feat gain to be able to create them (i.e. Fire I to create a fire spell which can only do so much damage).