The Campaign Builder's Guild

[ooc]Initial Post Now Up to Date with current build, Alpha 0.2. You only need to read this post to be caught up on how X-20 works.[/ooc]
[spoiler=CLERIC!][ooc]The Cleric is, I admit, a bit of a rush job - I did not check to make sure my extra feats or channeling masteries did not overlap with existing feats. I'll take care of this latter, I just wanted to get this out ASAP.[/ooc]

Cleric:
Alignment: A cleric's alignment must be within one step of her deity's, along either the law/chaos axis or the good/evil axis, unless her deity allows cleric's of any alignment.

HD: 4+d4

The cleric's class skills are Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Ranks Per Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Attack Bonus: As Rogue.

Class Features:
1: Aura, channel energy 1d6, domains, orisons, spontaneous casting
2: Channel Mastery, Bonus Channeling Feat
3: Channel Energy 2d6, Aura Expansion 1 (Weapons Treated as Magic to overcome DR)
4: Channel Mastery, Bonus Channeling Feat
5: Channel Energy 3d6, Aura Expansion 2 (Weapons Treated as having Cleric's Alignment to overcome DR)
6: Bonus Channeling Feat, 2 Channel Masteries

Changes from Pathfinder:

Channel Energy is usable more often. While still not usable at will, it us usable a number of times per day equal to 3+Wisdom Modifier+2 for each level in Cleric the Cleric has. As in Pathfinder, the Channel Energy does either positive or negative energy depending on the Cleric's alignment.

Spells Per Day:

0	1	2	3	4	5	6
4	2+1	-	-	-	-	-
5	3+1	2+1	-	-	-	-
6	4+1	3+1	2+1	-	-	-
6	4+1	4+1	3+1	2+1	-	-
6	4+1	4+1	4+1	3+1	2+1	-
6	4+1	4+1	4+1	4+1	4+1	3+1

Spell slots above level 4 are used to prepare spells with metamagic feats, prepare additional lower level spells, or used in conjunction with the Extra Channeling channel mastery

Channel Mastery: The cleric gain new options for their Channel Energy class features. A cleric must take the altered Channeling mastery to apply the effects of a channeling feat to a use of Channel Energy altered by a mastery. Unless noted, a use of Channel Energy with a channeling mastery applies expends the normal 1 daily use of the Channel Energy class feature. Applying a Mastery to a Channel is a free action, but using the altered Channel Energy requires the normal action for Channel Energy unless the mastery alters the Channel Energy's action. A cleric must used the altered Channel Energy on the same round the mastery was applied unless otherwise noted.

Reshape Channel: Instead of projecting the Channel Energy as just a 30 ft radius, it can also be channeled as a 60 ft cone or 120 ft line. The normal will save applies to creatures caught in the blast who would be damaged by it.
Special: This mastery cannot be used with any other mastery that changes the range or shape of the channel unless otherwise noted.

Opposition Channel: By an additional daily of her Channel Energy, the cleric can channel the opposite energy (Negative if already channel positive, or visa versa.)

Energetic Channel: The cleric chose one energy type (fire, acid, cold, electric, or sonic) upon selecting this mastery and can channel energy of that type instead of their normal positive or negative channeling. The save against this Channeling is a reflex save instead of a will save. If the Cleric has a a domain associated with one of these energy types, (Acid for Earth, Cold for Water, Electric for Air, and Fire for Fire) the cleric must chose that energy type. All clerics can chose sonic. A sonic channel uses d4s instead of the typical d6, but bypasses the hardness of objects and half the DR from armor.
Special: The range/area of the channel is halved unless the cleric spends one additional daily use of the channel energy class feature. This Mastery can be selected multiple times. Each time it is selected, it applies to an additional energy type. If selected more than once, the second energy type can use an energy outside the cleric's domain.

Focused Channel: At will, the channel energy class feature can be used against any single creature within 30 feet per cleric level. Channeling energy in this manner only deal 1d6+Wisdom Modifier healing or damage, regardless of normal Channel energy damage (unless damage has been modified by the empowered channel class feature). The creature targeted is allowed the normal will save to half the damage, and unlike normal channel energy Focused Channeling spell resistance applies normally (unless used to heal), and using it provokes attacks of opportunity. If the cleric has energetic channeling, no additional cost is incurred, though it still only does 1d6+Wisdom damage. A cleric must be level 3 or higher to select this mastery. This mastery does not expend any any daily uses of the channel energy class feature.
Special:  A cleric must spend one daily use of her Channel Energy class feature if used with Warding Channel, Quickened Channeling, Opposition Channeling, Repelling Channeling or Drawing Channeling. A cleric must spend two daily uses of her Channel Energy class feature if used with Improved Quicken Channeling. This mastery cannot be used with any other mastery that changes the range or shape of the channel unless otherwise noted.

Extra Channeling: A cleric may sacrifice a prepared spell to gain additional uses of her channel mastery, gaining uses equal to half the spell's level, rounded down (2 level 1 spells may be sacrificed for 1 additional use). Orisions cannot be sacrificed this way. The cleric must be level 3 or higher to select this mastery.
Special: A cleric cannot sacrifice his domain spell this way. This Mastery does not use any daily uses of Channel Energy. The additional uses of her Channel Mastery persist throughout the day. Using this Mastery is a full round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Channeling Rays: For one use of their channel energy ability, the cleric may select a number of creatures to target equal to the cleric's level within a range of 60 feet. One ranged attack roll is made, though the attack roll is only required if the channel energy is being used to deal damage. This channel energy mastery can be used with either Energetic Channeling or Opposition channeling.
Special:
Special: This mastery cannot be used with any other mastery that changes the range or shape of the channel unless otherwise noted.

Extended Channeling: This mastery doubles the range or area of channeled energy. This ability can be combined with any other ability that alters the clerics range or area. It uses 2 daily uses of the channel energy class feature, unless applied to Focused Channel, at which case it only uses 1 daily use.

Altered Channeling: A cleric with this mastery can apply the effects of any channeling feat she possess to a channel altered by a Channeling mastery.. This mastery cannot be combined with any channeling mastery that alters the damage or energy type of the channeled energy used. Alternatively, for two additional daily uses of Channel Energy, a cleric gain gain the benefits of any Channeling Feat besides Extra Channeling Mastery for one round.

Quickened Channeling: This mastery allows channel energy to be used as a move action for 2 daily uses of the channel energy class feature. A cleric can still only channel energy once per round.

Improved Quicken Channeling: This mastery allow a cleric to channel energy as a swift action for 4 daily uses of the channel energy class feature. A cleric still can only channel energy once per round. A cleric must have Quickened Channeling to take this mastery.

Channeling Blow: This mastery allows a cleric to channel energy through a melee attack. The cleric adds his weapon damage to the channeled energy if using a weapon, or an additional 1d6 if using it unarmed. If used with a melee weapon, this mastery still deals weapon damage if used to heal.  This mastery cannot be used with any other mastery that changes the range or shape of the channel, even otherwise noted.
Special: This mastery cannot be combined with Quickened Channeling or Improved Quickened Channeling, and the cleric can only make a single attack regardless of feats or iterative attacks earned from feats, class abilities, or level.

Channeling Shot: As Channeling Blow, but can be used with a ranged weapon instead of a melee weapon.  This mastery cannot be used with any other mastery that changes the range or shape of the channel, even if otherwise noted.

Forceful Channeling: For one additional use of the Channel Energy class feature, a cleric's channeled energy deals force damage instead of it's normal damage type. The dice used decrease to 1d4. A cleric must be 6th level to select this channel mastery.
Special: A cleric must posses Energetic Channeling to take this mastery.

Repelling Channel: For one additional use of the Channel Energy class feature, the cleric's channel energy pushes creatures in its area or that it targets 1d4x5 feet in addition to its normal effect. The cleric can sacrifice any other effect of her Channel Energy class feature to instead push any creatures effected by (1d4+Wisdom modifier)x10 feet.
Special: A Cleric must be level 3 to select this channel mastery.

Drawing Channel: As Repelling Channel, but instead draws the effected creatures the same distance towards the Cleric.
Special: A Cleric must be level 3 to select this channel mastery.

Warding Channel: A cleric sacrifices the damage of their channel energy class feature to grant all creatures within its area or targeted by it Damage Reduction equal to 2/- per dice the channel energy class feature would normally apply.
--------------

New Feat:
Extra Channel Mastery (Channeling)
Prerequisites: Channel energy 2d6, Wisdom 13.
The Cleric gains 1 additional channeling mastery. Normal restrictions on level apply, and a cleric must meet any prerequisites of the channeling mastery.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times, but only once for each point of Wisdom bonus the Cleric possesses.

Improved Channeling (Channeling)
Prerequisites: Channel energy 2d6, Wisdom 15.
The dice used for Channel Energy increase by one step.

Greater Improved Channeling (Channeling)
Prerequisites: Channel Energy 2d6, Wisdom 17, Improved Channeling.
The dice used for Channel Energy increase an additional step.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler=SORCERER!]Sorcerer[note=Why Not Wizard]In the classic model, the Wizard would come first, than the sorcerer, to round out the 4 man party. However, I wanted to have a spontaneous caster in the initial build as well as a prepared caster, so went with Sorcerer instead.[/note]

HD: 3+d3
Skills: 2+Int/Level
The sorcerer's class skills are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

BAB:
+1 per level. The Sorcerer does not gain iterative attacks.

Class Features:
Cantrips, Arcane Bond, Bloodline
Bonus Metamagic Feat
Bloodline Ability
Bonus Metamagic Feat
Bloodline Ability
Bloodline Apotheosis, Bonus Metamagic Feat

Spells Per Day:

1	2	3	4	5	6
4	-	-	-	-	-
5	4	-	-	-	-
6	5	4	-	-	-
6	6	5	4	-	-
6	6	6	5	4	-
6	6	6	6	6	4

Spells Known

0	1	2	3	4	5	6
4	2	-	-	-	-	-
5	3	2	-	-	-	-
6	4	3	2	-	-	-
7	4	4	3	2	-	-
8	4	4	4	3	2	-
9	4	4	4	4	4	3

*Note that there are no actual spells above level 4. Levels 5-6 are for spells known with metamagic feats already applied, or learning lower level spells in a higher slot.

Bloodlines:
Aberrant:
+50% duration to polymorph spells, Summoned creatures gain the unnatural template.
1 - Acidic Spit (su): 1d6+charisma damage, usable at will, 30 foot range.
3 - Tentacles (ex): Sprout two tentacles from shoulders with a 10 ft reach, primary natural attacks that deal 1d4+str damage, can be retracted or extended at will allowing them to be hidden. Tentacles do not chance the sorcerer's threatened area.
5: Weird Anatomy (ex): 50% chance for a critical hit or sneak attack to have no effect, +2 to fortitude saves.
Apotheosis: Spell Resistance 15, Blindsight 60 feet, Tentacle reach becomes 15 feet, gains Improved Grab when using tentacles.

Fiendish:
+50% duration of summoned fiends.
1: Claws: Sprout at will, 2 primary natural attacks that do 1d4+str damage.
3: Resist 5 both Fire and Acid, Gain +2 to saves vs. posion.
5: Perfect Darkvision (Can see even in magical darkness) 60 feet, Can sprout wings to gain a fly speed of 30ft with average manuverability at will.
Apotheosis: Telepathy to 100 feet, Fast Healing 2, when summoning a fiendish creature or evil outsider summons one additional one, claw damage increases by one step.

Aquatic:
+1 to save DC of spells with the Water or Cold descriptor/damage, summoned creatures have aquatic template.
1: Steal Heat: Touch deals 1d6+Cha damage, heals the sorcerer for half the damage dealt, usable at will.
3: Gain swim speed at same speed as land speed, gain aquatic and amphibious subtypes, absorb cold 5 (if hit by cold damage, convert up to 5 of the damage dealt into temporary HP.)
5: Can create 1 gallon of water/level, +2 class bonus to defense.
Apotheosis: Swim speed doubles, Gains DR 5/Piercing, and gains blindsense 60 feet (120 feet blindsight when underwater)

Celestial:
+50% duration of summoned celestials.
1: Holy Touch: Deals 1d4+Cha damage to evil or neutral targets, heals good targets for 1d4+Cha damage. Can be used at will, but when used to heal must wait 5 rounds before healing same creature again.
3: Resist 5 both Electricity and Cold.
5:  Can sprout wings to gain a fly speed of 30ft with average manuverability at will, gains Improved Low Light Vision.
Apotheosis: Permanent Tongues effect (as the spell), adds Charisma modifier as bonus damage to any evil or neutral creatures, no delay to frequency of Holy Touch's healing.

Draconic:
+1 damage per dice with spells of associated energy type (See Draconic Bloodline in the Pathfinder SRD), Summoned creatures can gain the draconic template.
1: Gains a primary natural bite attack and secondary natural tail attack, both of which deal 1d6+Str damage. (Secondary natural attacks in X20 take a -3 penalty)
3: Resist associated Energy 5, gains natural 2/armor.
5: Breath Ray: Ranged Touch Attack (60 ft) that deals 3d6 damage of the associated energy type (no spell resistance). Once used, must wait 1d4+1 rounds before it can be used again.
Apotheosis: Gains Blindsense 30 feet, 2 claws as primary attacks that deal 1d4+strength damage, Can sprout wings at will with fly speed 60ft (Poor Maneuverability).

Earthen:
Summoned creatures can have the earthen template, +1 DC to spells with the Earthen or Acid descriptor/Damage Type.
1: Gains 2 natural slam attacks for 1d4+Str damage.
3: Absorb Acid (see Absorb Cold, above), 10ft burrow speed.
5: Forceful Blow: Slam attacks or spells with the acid or earth descriptor can push the target back 5x(1d6+Str) feet, +10 ft to burrow speed.
Apotheosis: Damage Reduction 3/- , +10 feet to burrow speed, Tremorsense out to 60 feet.

Fire:
Summoned creatures can have the Earthen Template, +1 DC to spells with the Fire descriptor/damage type.
1:  Burning Aura: Creatures that strike the sorcerer with a natural or melee weapon take 1d6+Cha fire damage.
3: Absorb Fire 5 (As absorb cold above), 10 ft climb speed.
5: Aura Surge: Can expand Aura to burn all creatures with in a 20 ft radius for 3d6 damage  (Reflex half) every 5 rounds, climb speed +10 feet.
Apotheosis: Climb +10 feet, Burning Aura becomes Burning Retribution: hits any creature within 30 feet that successfully strikes the Sorcerer with a targeted spell or a ranged, natural, or melee attack.  

Aural:
Summoned creatures gain a fly speed equal to their land speed with perfect maneuverability and +4 to their dexterity.
1: Ranged touch attack usable at will deals 1d6+Cha electric damage, ignores DR from metal armor.
3: Absorb Sonic 5 (As absorb cold above), Fly 10 ft (Perfect)
5: Focused Gale - Burst of hurricane force wind centered on sorcerer with a 60ft radius, can be used every 5 rounds.
Apotheosis: Fly speed becomes 20 (Perfect), +4 class bonus to defense.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=ROGUE!]HD: 4+d4

The rogue's class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

Skill Ranks per Level: 8 + Int modifier.

BAB:
+1
+2
+3
+4/+0
+5/+1
+6/+2

Class Features:
1: Sneak Attack 1d6, Rogue Talent
2: Uncanny Dodge, Rogue Talent
3: Sneak Attack 2d6, Evasion
4: Improved Uncanny Dodge*, Rogue Talent
5: Sneak Attack 3d6, Rogue Talent
6: Perfect Strike, Master Rogue

*Because of the lower levels, Improved Uncanny Dodge can be overcome by someone with effective levels 2 lower as opposed to 4. [note]The Rogue Talents, for now, use the list from the Pathfinder SRD, though I'll be modifying and adding to it after I get the classes hammered out (at the same point I'll be modifying and adding to spells, feats, and other flexible abilities.)[/note]Master Rogue: Much like Fighters, at level 6 a rogue picks from a list of styles that add to their abilities and focus them on a particular type of combat, though it doesn't reduce their effectiveness in other areas - unlike fighters, this is only gained at level 6, not as they level (a rogue with a particular focus in mind should chose talents that complement them.)

Acrobat: Acrobatic Bluff (Can use Acrobatics in place of Bluff to feint or misdirect in combat), the rogue is always treated as having a running start for jumping, the rogue takes no penalty for using Acrobatics to balance on a narrow surface while moving full speed, and the rogue can, as an immediate action, make a Stealth check when landing from a fall or jump. (Acrobatics must be used as usual to avoid or reduce damage)

Grifter: +2 class bonus to Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Linguistics. The Rogue can use Detect Thoughts at will as a supernatural ability, but can only read surface thoughts and must make a Sense Motive vs. Bluff check to successfully read thoughts, even if the target fails its will save.

Thug: +6 bonus to hit points, can do nonlethal damage with sneak attack, adds 1d6 to sneak attack when using an improvised weapon or unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes by the rogue deal 1d6 damage (1d4 if small, 1d8 if large) and can be made as off hand attacks if the rogue has two-weapon fighting. This damage increases by one step if the rogue has Improved Unarmed Strike. (The thug must select the appropriate feats to avoid the typical penalties associate with improvised weapons or unarmed strikes.)

Gangster: +2 class bonus to attack and defense while flanking, can sacrifice one sneak attack dice to make an intimidate check as an immediate action after sneak attacking. Gains a +2 class bonus to intimidate.

Scoundrel: Can charge without moving in a straight line, adds Dex modifier instead of Str to light weapons, and when taking the full defense action can make attacks of opportunity against an opponent that misses with a melee attack. The Scoundrel can sacrifice 1d6 sneak attack damage to leave his opponent flat footed after hitting with a sneak attack (but cannot use this ability on the same target on the following round). The ability functions against creatures normally immune to sneak attacks, though they still do not take sneak attack damage.

Master Sniper: Can sneak attack with a ranged weapon at 60 feet or one full range increment, whichever is better. The penalty for range increments is reduced by 1 and the penalty for perception checks does not apply until after 100 feet. The rogue takes no penalty for attack rolls with a ranged weapon while prone.

Assassin: Can make a death attack after observing an opponent for three full rounds - this is a sneak attack (with normal rules for sneak attack) that is automatically a critical hit so long as the attack lands. The Assassin gains poison use if he does not already have it, and adds his int modifier to saving throws against poisons he applied.

Scout: Gains a +10 ft class bonus to land speed, does not take the armor check penalty with light armor (though max dex bonus does still apply), gains Improved Low Light Vision as an extraordinary ability, and gains +2 class bonus to perception checks as well as +2 class bonus to defense when the Scout moved at least 10 feet on his turn.

Infiltrator: The Infiltrator gains Hide in Plain Sight, the ability to use Disguise Self at will as an extraordinary ability (No will save to see through, but casting time is increased to 10 minutes), the ability to 20 on search checks in only one minute, and can treat ceilings as surfaces with a 90 degree angle for the purposes of climb checks so long as it has appropriate handholds or is no more than 5 feet wide (10 feet if large). When making a sneak attack, the Infiltrator can sacrifice one sneak attack dice to silence his target for 1 minute, as it was under the effects of a silence spell.

Master Thief: +2 class bonus to slight of hand and disable device, gains spider climb as a supernatural ability usable at will, and gains Case the Joint, a +4 untyped bonus to all relevant skill checks when attempting to steal from or sneak into/within a location if he spends 3 full hours studying it.

Dungeoneer: Trap Sense +3, gains Darkvision out to 60 feet (or doubles distance of existing Darkvision, including Darkvision gained from a spell, feat, or other source even if not permanent), and can sneak attack (2d6) against creatures normally immune to sneak attacks as a supernatural ability.

[note]The Spell Robber (need a better name that's not spellthief) Master Talent is one that I'm unsure of - it seems like it might be a bit too much, but at the same time is so situational that I feel that balances it. I'd like thoughts on if this should be tweaked or abandoned or moved to another class.[/note]Spell Robber: Can sacrifice sneak attack dice to steal a spell or spell like ability with a level equal to the dice damage sacrificed and use it within 6 rounds of stealing it (the caster either looses the prepared spell if he prepares spells, looses access to a spell slot of the same level if spontaneous caster for 1 minute, or cannot use the spell like ability for 1 minute. Spell like abilities cannot be stolen if all uses are already expended, and spells cannot be stolen if the caster has already used all prepared spells of that level or all spell slots of that level have been expended. This spell or spell like ability can be chosen by the rogue if he succeed on a Spellcraft check with a DC equal to the casters caster level+relevant ability modifier) Gains a +2 class bonus on Use Magic Device and Spellcraft checks. When making a sneak attack, instead of doing any damage or using spell steal, can use a targeted dispel magic on the creature (caster level = rogue level). If successful, the Spell Robber can make a Spellcraft check with a DC equal to the casters caster level+relevant ability modifier to gain the benefit of any beneficial spells dispelled for 2+int rounds. This check is made separately for each spell dispelled. If the rogue makes a full attack action or has multiple attacks, he can only use this ability once per round, but can sacrifice damage from other attacks to gain a +2 bonus on the dispel check for each attack that hits. Otherwise, subsequent attacks function as normal.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=FIGHTER!]Attack bonus will scale as such:
+1, +2, +3/+0, +4/+1, +5/+2, +6/+3/+0. A total of 3 iterative attacks at max level, which seems and feels more balanced than the 4 I had initially planned (especially since I didn't consider cleave, two weapon fighting, and all the things that come with those when I planned that) but still gives those iterative attacks I love so much. These are the same values used in the playtest. Saving throws will progress at the same rate they do for all classes +1, +2, +2, +3, +3, +4 - based off the often unused "medium" progression for saves in d20. Defense will be discussed later.

The class abilities will go as follows:
Skills: The fighter's class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str). The Fighter Also Gains 2 bonus skills depending on style as class skills.

Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

HD: 5+d5, or 8 (chosen each level) [note]d5= d10/2 rounded down, minimum 1[/note]

Class Abilities:
1: Bonus Feat, Style (rank 1)
2: Bonus Feat
3: Style (rank 2)
4: Bonus Feat
5: Bonus Feat
6: Style Mastery

Styles:
Soldier: a style that excels at teamwork and defending/aiding party members and himself, using shield and weapon in tandem.
Bonus Class Skills: Perception, Craft (Arms and Armor) - A Soldier must be more alert than most warriors, and time in the field has taught them to repair or even make their on equipment in absence of supply trains.
Rank 1: +1 class bonus to self and ally's attack rolls while flanking, +2 class bonus when using the Aid Another action.
Rank 2: Can sacrifice an attack of opportunity to provide ally with his DR, gains bonus DR equal to shield's Defense Bonus
Mastery: Both himself and ally deal additional 1d6 damage while flanking, gains +2 class bonus to Defense when flanking and grants ally same bonus.

Knight: a style that is well trained in fighting but is part of the nobility, skilled at navigating social interactions.
Bonus Skills: Diplomacy, Sense Motive: A Knight is familiar with court intrigue and has a better grasp of social interactions than most warriors.
Rank 1: +2 class bonus to checks when interacting with nobility or wealthy merchants, can treat Social feats as Fighter bonus feats.
Rank 2: Gains a Squire (Warrior(NPC Class) with a level 1/2 the Knight's, Str 12, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 12, Skills and Feats chosen by Knight) that is always "Helpful" to Knight.
Mastery: Class bonus to interacting with nobility or wealthy merchants increases to +4, gains family heirloom magic weapon or armor worth up to 2000gp.

Calvary: a style that excels in mounted combat.
Bonus Class Skills: Perception, Heal: A Calvary fighter must be observant and know how to treat basic injuries, both on his mount and on others.
Rank 1: Gains an Animal Companion as a Druid of his level, but must be a companion he could ride as a mount.
Rank 2: +1 class bonus to attack and defense while mounted - bonus applies to mount as well. No penalty for firing a ranged weapon while mounted.
Mastery: +2 to damage while mounted, +2 class bonus to Ride, +2 class bonus to CMB and CMD while mounted.

Guardsman: a style that is better at social with the "lower classes" than most fighters and especially skilled a nonlethal capture/subdual.
Bonus Class Skills: Knowledge (local) and Sense Motive: A Guardsman is used to being lied to and knows cities well.
Rank 1: No penalty for doing subdual damage with weapon, uncanny dodge as the rogue class ability.
Rank 2: +2 class bonus to CMB to Grapple, Trip, and Disarm, Critical hits automatically confirm when dealing subdual damage.
Mastery: When critically hits while dealing nonlethal damage, target must make a saving throw (DC 10+Guardsman Strength Bonus) or be stunned for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.

Swashbuckler: a style that is better at speed, agility, improvisation.
Bonus Skills: Acrobatics and Stealth: A swashbuckler is trained in mobility and sneaking past opponents.
Rank 1: Does not need to travel in a straight line to charge, can sacrifice weapon damage to leave opponent flat footed.
Rank 2: +5ft class bonus to base speed, +10 ft bonus if wearing light or no armor: adds Dex instead of Strength to damage with light weapons or rapier.
Mastery: +2 class to Defense when moved at least 10 ft that round, An opponent struck by a swashbuckler is considered Flanked from the square the swashbuckler struck from even if he has left that spot.

Bruiser: a style that allows for a to focuses on crude and brutal unarmed combat.
Bonus Skills: Heal, Acrobatics: A Bruiser learns to treat their own wounds and is more agile from barroom brawls.
Rank 1: Gains a natural primary slam attack for 1d6 damage (1d4 if Small, 1d8 if Large), takes -3 penalty if using it as off hand attack. A Bruiser is considered proficient with improvised melee and ranged weapons, removing the -4 penalty.
Rank 2: Slam attack damage increases by 1 step, gains +2 class bonus to defense if unarmed. If wearing gauntlets, can do gauntlet damage or slam damage, Bruiser's choice. A Bruiser holding an appropriately sized/shaped object (chair, large lid, etc) gains a +2 shield bonus to AC.
Mastery: Gains a second slam attack as a primary attack at same damage as first, can use enchantment bonus on gauntlets as bonus on attack/damage rolls as well as any special qualities. A Bruiser also increases the damage of improvised melee weapons by one step and their critical damage to x3.

Armsman: A style skilled with a variety of weapons and armors.
Bonus Class Skills: Craft (Arms and Armor), Knowledge (Dungeoneering): A Armsman is well versed in his weapons and armor, and has a good knowledge of the inhabitants of the depths he often faces.
Rank 1: Armor Mastery 1: +1 class bonus to Defense when wearing Armor, -1 to armor check penalty.
Rank 2: Weapon Mastery 1: +1 class bonus to attack rolls with particular category of weapon.
Mastery: True Mastery: Additional +1 class bonus to DR when wearing Armor, +2 class bonus to damage when using weapon from category chosen with Weapon Mastery 1

Magebane: A style trained in combating casters and supernatural creatures.
Bonus Class Skills: Knowledge (Arcane), Use Magic Device - A Magebane is taught to understand magic and use the devices produced by it.
Rank 1: Detect Magic as a Spell Like Ability, usable at will, +2 class bonus to saving throws against all spells and supernatural effects.
Rank 2: Can sacrifice strength bonus to damage to hit target with a targeted dispel magic effect (Caster Level = Strength bonus), Spell Resistance 5+Con Score
Mastery: When making a full attack can sacrifice one attack to have a readied counterspell action (as if using Dispel Magic to counter)  against a spell that targets him or is cast by a caster within melee range (or 20 feet if using ranged weapon) with a caster level equal to the Base Attack Bonus of sacrificed attack.  [/spoiler]
So I've been pondering various d20 systems and variants and E6 and all of that, and have begun looking for a system that doesn't have the problems of those two systems - for standard d20, you have characters that become gods by max level, and for E6, you lose out many of your class abilities or that general feeling of awesome. As such, I'm trying out a different way of doing things. Here's some basic concepts I've worked out:

1) Classes have 6 levels, condensed versions of the original base classes.

2) HP will use an increase modeled off of Iron Heroes - instead of gaining d8 hp, a class would gain d4+4, which will keep HP more predictable and normalized.

3) Attack bonus increases each time a new HD is gained. Classes with a martial bent gain more attacks: a primary fighter's attack bonus at level 6 will be +6/+3/+0, a rogue type will be +6/+2, and a wizard type will be +6. Saves will gain a more linear progression (again, gained with HD increase), with abilities like mettle, evasion, uncanny dodge, non-fractional bonuses and such to make sure classes with emphasis on mobility, mental fortitude, and physical toughness retain that.

4) Feats are gained at every even level. Every class gains class features at every level as well. Spells increase up till level 4 - some of the more interesting/iconic ideas in spells that are found past level 4 spell slots are going to be retooled to fit lower levels. In addition, casters will gain spell slots for 5 and 6, usable not for new spells but for adding metamagic feats to lower level spells.

5) Class defense bonus is nixed: Defense is increased by class ability, feats, and the enhancement bonus on armor. Armor, instead of the normal bonus, provides Damage Reduction equal to its base bonus - a good way to increase player survivability without making them have tons more hit points than a low level person.

6) This is the part of the project that's likely going to drive me into utter madness, but I intend on rebalancing and outright restatting monsters, especially the more iconic ones (Dragons being the primary example) to retain their epic threat level while still being within the range of what characters with BAB's around 6 and 6 hit dice could handle.

7) Progression after level 6 will be, instead of just feats (which I feel is a somewhat bogged down system that feels moderately schizophrenic), accomplished through the use "advanced classes," which will work like prestige classes do in d20...if you strip them of BAB increase, Save increases, HD increases - basically everything aside from class features. The goal is to increase player versatility without a direct increase in player damage output or dramatic increases in player survivability.

Thoughts?

Quote from: Xathan Back AgainClasses have 6 levels, condensed versions of the original base classes.

This is good. I like this. Most of the analysis of 3e that I've seen suggests that around level 5 or 6 is the pinnacle of human achievement, when considering things in any sort of "realistic" fashion. Beyond that you're clearly superhuman-- and the game starts to break.

Quote from: Xathan Back AgainHP will use an increase modeled off of Iron Heroes - instead of gaining d8 hp, a class would gain d4+4, which will keep HP more predictable and normalized.

I do not like this, however. Rolling for HP is an idea that should've gone away 20 years ago, and it did in most game systems that aren't D&D. The best way to keep HP more predictable and normalized is to completely get rid of the idea of rolling for HP in the first place.

Quote from: Xathan Back AgainAttack bonus increases each time a new HD is gained. Classes with a martial bent gain more attacks: a primary fighter's attack bonus at level 10 will be +6/+4/+2/+0, a rogue type will be +6/+3/+0, and a wizard type will be +6/+0.

Level 10? You just said it only goes to level 6.

Anyway, giving every class a full attack bonus (i.e., BAB = level, like a Fighter) makes life nice for casters, but, then again, life is already pretty nice for them. I'm not sure how balanced it is. It'll take some doing to figure out just how many extra attacks should be given out (and when) in order to compensate for this.

Quote from: Xathan Back AgainFeats are gained at every level. Every class gains class features at every level as well. Spells increase up till level 4 - some of the more interesting/iconic ideas in spells that are found past level 4 spell slots are going to be retooled to fit lower levels.

I think some of the iconic spells are just going to have to go, or be replaced by complex rituals that are driven by arbitrarium, unobtainium, and DM fiat. Otherwise, you'll have to do things like somehow make True Resurrection or Wish a level 4 spell.

Quote from: Xathan Back AgainClasses get a defense bonus as they level, determined by class and related bonuses. Armor, instead of the normal bonus, provides Damage Reduction - a good way to increase player survivability without making them have tons more hit points than a low level person.

I like this idea, too. I never liked that d20 puts "didn't hit me" and "hit me but my armor protected me" on the same axis. It was a perfectly fine simplification when it was the 1970s and you were playing a game that let you add some color to your Chainmail wargame. It isn't so great any more.

Quote from: Xathan Back AgainThis is the part of the project that's likely going to drive me into utter madness, but I intend on rebalancing and outright restatting monsters, especially the more iconic ones (Dragons being the primary example) to retain their epic threat level while still being within the range of what characters with BAB's around 6 and 6 hit dice could handle.

Yeah, good luck with that one. :P

Quote from: Xathan Back AgainProgression after level 6 will be, instead of just feats (which I feel is a somewhat bogged down system that feels moderately schizophrenic), accomplished through the use "advanced classes," which will work like prestige classes do in d20...if you strip them of BAB increase, Save increases, HD increases - basically everything aside from class features. The goal is to increase player versatility without a direct increase in player damage output or dramatic increases in player survivability.

Hmm... I wonder if this will work. I like the idea of not increasing HD any more, to avoid hit points getting out of control, and a case could be made for not increasing BAB or saves too much, but I also wonder if this might remove some of the feeling of advancement that comes from gaining a level. On the other hand, gaining new class features is a nice thing, as long as the "prestige classes" are colorful and interesting enough. To be honest, I'm not sure how I feel about this... so I probably don't have a whole lot of useful comments to add.

Quote from: sparkletwist

Quote from: Xathan Back AgainClasses have 6 levels, condensed versions of the original base classes.

This is good. I like this. Most of the analysis of 3e that I've seen suggests that around level 5 or 6 is the pinnacle of human achievement, when considering things in any sort of "realistic" fashion. Beyond that you're clearly superhuman-- and the game starts to break.

That one is something I've heard too on a number of occasions, and the analysis behind E6 supports that. Want to keep it within human without losing awesome but without going into superhuman. :P

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Quote from: Xathan Back AgainHP will use an increase modeled off of Iron Heroes - instead of gaining d8 hp, a class would gain d4+4, which will keep HP more predictable and normalized.

I do not like this, however. Rolling for HP is an idea that should've gone away 20 years ago, and it did in most game systems that aren't D&D. The best way to keep HP more predictable and normalized is to completely get rid of the idea of rolling for HP in the first place.

I agree that for the most part getting rid of rolling is something that most systems do and that works in normalization, but part of d20's appeal is very much that classic feel. This method is trying to find that happy middle ground of random and predictable. I don't want to completely do away with random hit points - part of the problem with non-random hit points is that it increases one of the common complaints people have with 4e - "Every class feels the same" or, alternatively, "every fighter/rogue/wizard/blank feels the same." - and this helps with that a little, while making the gap smaller. 

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Quote from: Xathan Back AgainAttack bonus increases each time a new HD is gained. Classes with a martial bent gain more attacks: a primary fighter's attack bonus at level 10 will be +6/+4/+2/+0, a rogue type will be +6/+3/+0, and a wizard type will be +6/+0.

Level 10? You just said it only goes to level 6.

Same reason I keep mentioning "every HD" the original draft of this system had 10 levels, but you only gained HD and related benefits at level 1,2,4,6,8,10. It wasn't until I came up with the "Advanced Class" system that I realized I could do away with that system, but didn't clean up this draft enough to get rid of every artifact I missed. Will go back and edit that. :P

QuoteAnyway, giving every class a full attack bonus (i.e., BAB = level, like a Fighter) makes life nice for casters, but, then again, life is already pretty nice for them. I'm not sure how balanced it is. It'll take some doing to figure out just how many extra attacks should be given out (and when) in order to compensate for this.

The big balancing factor here is that d20 systems are based around caster's spells using Touch Attacks which bypass a number of different defense types. Class based defense does away with that - but also means that giving casters a lower BaB would be a huge neutering factor. Number of attacks is going to be a balancing act - but largely would be something that comes out through play testing, likely.

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Quote from: Xathan Back AgainFeats are gained at every level. Every class gains class features at every level as well. Spells increase up till level 4 - some of the more interesting/iconic ideas in spells that are found past level 4 spell slots are going to be retooled to fit lower levels.

I think some of the iconic spells are just going to have to go, or be replaced by complex rituals that are driven by arbitrarium, unobtainium, and DM fiat. Otherwise, you'll have to do things like somehow make True Resurrection or Wish a level 4 spell.

Oh, iconic spells like True Resurrection and Wish are going to have to go. I'm thinking things like Shadow Conjuration, Shadow Walk, Astral Travel - spells that are either cool or interesting OR provide a way to advance the plot, not the major ones.

Incidentally, any spell that returns the dead to life is going to replaced with a single spell that can be used to return the dead, but involves a quest in the underworld - with the revived person's soul taking on an ectoplasmic form to assist.

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Quote from: Xathan Back AgainClasses get a defense bonus as they level, determined by class and related bonuses. Armor, instead of the normal bonus, provides Damage Reduction - a good way to increase player survivability without making them have tons more hit points than a low level person.

I like this idea, too. I never liked that d20 puts "didn't hit me" and "hit me but my armor protected me" on the same axis. It was a perfectly fine simplification when it was the 1970s and you were playing a game that let you add some color to your Chainmail wargame. It isn't so great any more.

Thanks! I wish I could claim credit for having this idea, but so many people have done variants for this (all of which are OGL) that I'll have to do almost no work here - it's just a matter of picking which one I like best.

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Quote from: Xathan Back AgainThis is the part of the project that's likely going to drive me into utter madness, but I intend on rebalancing and outright restatting monsters, especially the more iconic ones (Dragons being the primary example) to retain their epic threat level while still being within the range of what characters with BAB's around 6 and 6 hit dice could handle.

Yeah, good luck with that one. :P

I know. X.X I'm thinking of doing a ton of templates to create an easy conversion system, as well as creating something like the Ediolon used by the summoner for various creature types to make homebrewing/remaking monsters much more simple and streamlined than trying to manually convert them all.

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Quote from: Xathan Back AgainProgression after level 6 will be, instead of just feats (which I feel is a somewhat bogged down system that feels moderately schizophrenic), accomplished through the use "advanced classes," which will work like prestige classes do in d20...if you strip them of BAB increase, Save increases, HD increases - basically everything aside from class features. The goal is to increase player versatility without a direct increase in player damage output or dramatic increases in player survivability.

Hmm... I wonder if this will work. I like the idea of not increasing HD any more, to avoid hit points getting out of control, and a case could be made for not increasing BAB or saves too much, but I also wonder if this might remove some of the feeling of advancement that comes from gaining a level. On the other hand, gaining new class features is a nice thing, as long as the "prestige classes" are colorful and interesting enough. To be honest, I'm not sure how I feel about this... so I probably don't have a whole lot of useful comments to add.

This one, I think, is going to be hard for anyone to really have feelings/thoughts on this until I get some examples posted to show what I mean. :P

Oh, as an aside, the "kernel" system - the system I'm working from as my basis - is Pathfinder, not 3.5. Just something I feel important to note.

Quote from: sparkletwist

Quote from: Xathan Back AgainClasses have 6 levels, condensed versions of the original base classes.

This is good. I like this. Most of the analysis of 3e that I've seen suggests that around level 5 or 6 is the pinnacle of human achievement, when considering things in any sort of "realistic" fashion. Beyond that you're clearly superhuman-- and the game starts to break.

I'm intrigued about a few points, but this is all I have time to ask about. How could such analyses be conducted. How did anyone go about mapping real-world capabilities to the level system and determine a certain level represents peak human performance? (Not trying to be argumentative on this point, I'm really curious what the thinking was.)

Quote from: Phoenix

Quote from: sparkletwist

Quote from: Xathan Back AgainClasses have 6 levels, condensed versions of the original base classes.

This is good. I like this. Most of the analysis of 3e that I've seen suggests that around level 5 or 6 is the pinnacle of human achievement, when considering things in any sort of "realistic" fashion. Beyond that you're clearly superhuman-- and the game starts to break.

I'm intrigued about a few points, but this is all I have time to ask about. How could such analyses be conducted. How did anyone go about mapping real-world capabilities to the level system and determine a certain level represents peak human performance? (Not trying to be argumentative on this point, I'm really curious what the thinking was.)

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2

Main place I've seen the idea.

For spells above the E6 level, you could easily implement Incantations - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm - which would allow the awesome high level spells, but would balance it as well, as they would be costly and time-consuming.

When you say condensed versions of original base classes, do you mean Fighter Mage Thief (or genericized versions like Warrior Mage Expert) or do you mean the 3x gamut?

I like flat attack bonus/save progression and I'm interested to see how you pull it off, but for casters couldn't you use something like caster-level attacks for magic? That way they can pull off touch attacks without inexplicable weapon training. I don't much like iterative attacks as a rule, but maybe you can pull it off. For me it's just too much rolling, so I just give some martial classes limited area effects and the like.

Giving both a feat and a class feature seems a bit odd. Have you considered class features as feats? Or alternating? Or having that bonus feat structure in classes (so fighters get feats every level, rogues get feats less frequently in exchange for skills, and casters get feats least frequently in exchange for spells)

The scaling defense bonus and DR seems a good way to go, especially with E6 keeping it within reason.

On monsters, it may be more useful to have a method for quick and easy monster generation/tailoring/reskinning rather than statting every little thing out. Also keep in mind that the special abilities can scale monsters up in different ways from stats. Dragons are a great example if they've got flight, long range, and area attacks all at once.

On progression after level 6, consider feat chains and my earlier statement about features as feats.

EDIT: Rituals or incantations would be great for high level spells, especially if you key magic to its own skill or attack bonus.

I'll take a look.  I did a few of these things in my Accis-World of Bronze pulpy d20.  Advanced classes, lowered HP amounts, flattenned magical mana gain after a certain point, and the use of DR (as a potential DR with armor and a skill that allowed using it).

Quote from: XathanThis is the part of the project that's likely going to drive me into utter madness, but I intend on rebalancing and outright restatting monsters, especially the more iconic ones (Dragons being the primary example) to retain their epic threat level while still being within the range of what characters with BAB's around 6 and 6 hit dice could handle.

This might seem like an overly simple solution, but with something like a dragon, I think re-statting might be incredibly easy, since dragons already have a range of age ranges.  Why not just take a Very Young Red Dragon or a Young Dragon and, if you want a giant dragon instead of a little one, change the size to Gargantuan?  Maybe add an extra ability or two?

Quote from: Señor Leetz
For spells above the E6 level, you could easily implement Incantations - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm - which would allow the awesome high level spells, but would balance it as well, as they would be costly and time-consuming.

A lot of spells could easily work under that framework, so I think I'm going to go that route - there are just a few spells that will work better as traditional castings that I like (Shadow Evocation/Conjuration being the first example off the top of my head), but should be easily reworked to lower levels.

Quote from: beejazz
When you say condensed versions of original base classes, do you mean Fighter Mage Thief (or genericized versions like Warrior Mage Expert) or do you mean the 3x gamut?

I'm going to do Fighter/Wizard/Rogue/Cleric first, but expand to the entire 3.X gamut including the Piazo Pathfinder Core Classes and some of my own design.

QuoteI like flat attack bonus/save progression and I'm interested to see how you pull it off, but for casters couldn't you use something like caster-level attacks for magic? That way they can pull off touch attacks without inexplicable weapon training.

I thought about that, but the end result (seems like it) would be overly complicated. The reason a wizard won't have inexplicable weapon training will be weapons proficiencies - with only a +6 attack bonus, that -4 for non-proficiency will be a nightmare. A skilled fighter and a trained wizard will be just as good at hitting something with a stick, but with a sword the fighter will be much, much better - unless the wizard has taken Martial Weapon Proficiency (Short Sword), which means the skill isn't inexplicable, because he took the effort to train.

QuoteI don't much like iterative attacks as a rule, but maybe you can pull it off. For me it's just too much rolling, so I just give some martial classes limited area effects and the like.

It's possible I can make it something you will like. However...I love iterative attacks, so it's possible that my system won't ever be something you'll like. Just a matter of taste - I'm not a huge fan of limited area effects. :P

QuoteGiving both a feat and a class feature seems a bit odd. Have you considered class features as feats? Or alternating? Or having that bonus feat structure in classes (so fighters get feats every level, rogues get feats less frequently in exchange for skills, and casters get feats least frequently in exchange for spells)

I'm going to keep class features at every level, because otherwise it just feels like bad design - if you're only getting 6 levels in your core class, every level should make you feel like you get something that is part of your core. The feats every level are to increase versatility at lower levels, since that's where it matters most - however, I'm open to having my mind changed on this one. :)

QuoteThe scaling defense bonus and DR seems a good way to go, especially with E6 keeping it within reason.

Thanks! This is the one change that seems to be most positive, I just hope I can make it work as well as it sounds.

QuoteOn monsters, it may be more useful to have a method for quick and easy monster generation/tailoring/reskinning rather than statting every little thing out. Also keep in mind that the special abilities can scale monsters up in different ways from stats. Dragons are a great example if they've got flight, long range, and area attacks all at once.

Yeah, that's why it's going to be a bit of a nightmare. I'm going to work on a simple method, but unlike pretty much every change I'm presenting here, I have no basis to work from, so gonna have to do it from scratch.

QuoteOn progression after level 6, consider feat chains and my earlier statement about features as feats.

That's the exact same thing E6 does, to my understanding, and while an entirely viable system, at the point where I do that my system not only becomes obsolete, but feat chains are the primary problem I have with E6. I like classes, I like the clear progression those offer, and I like that it's more "user friendly" than feats, which can be overly broad and nightmareish for new players to understand and become overwhelming for experienced players that consider every option. If those are the only method of progression...I just don't like it, is what it comes down to, and is the whole reason I'm making this system. :)

QuoteEDIT: Rituals or incantations would be great for high level spells, especially if you key magic to its own skill or attack bonus.

Agreed - especially since virtually everyone has stated as such. 90% of the spells I want to keep would work perfectly as rituals or incantations, and the remaining 10% (which now that I think about it, also include things like "Wall/Dome of Force, Prismatic Spray, Disintegrate" and a few others are easily retooled so their DCs/effects/durations are tooled better to level 6.

Quote from: LordVreeg
I'll take a look.  I did a few of these things in my Accis-World of Bronze pulpy d20.  Advanced classes, lowered HP amounts, flattenned magical mana gain after a certain point, and the use of DR (as a potential DR with armor and a skill that allowed using it).

I look forward to your feedback!

Quote from: Steerpike

Quote from: XathanThis is the part of the project that's likely going to drive me into utter madness, but I intend on rebalancing and outright restatting monsters, especially the more iconic ones (Dragons being the primary example) to retain their epic threat level while still being within the range of what characters with BAB's around 6 and 6 hit dice could handle.

This might seem like an overly simple solution, but with something like a dragon, I think re-statting might be incredibly easy, since dragons already have a range of age ranges.  Why not just take a Very Young Red Dragon or a Young Dragon and, if you want a giant dragon instead of a little one, change the size to Gargantuan?  Maybe add an extra ability or two?

That's actually a very, very viable option. Things such as the mutation system and the Extraterrestrial/Space creature templates from D20 Modern and Future, the Eidolon progression and Giant/Young/Advanced Creature templates from Pathfinder, and finally various other templates to round it out a bit more might provide a simple and elegant solution to this particular problem. :)

Thank you everyone for the continued feedback! I think this project is coming along very nicely, and look forward to how it works out.

Quote from: Xathan Back AgainI don't want to completely do away with random hit points - part of the problem with non-random hit points is that it increases one of the common complaints people have with 4e - "Every class feels the same" or, alternatively, "every fighter/rogue/wizard/blank feels the same." - and this helps with that a little, while making the gap smaller. 

There are better ways to make different members of a class feel the same, like presenting them with balanced and equally appealing options that some can take and others decline. This is a whole lot better than introducing "difference" by making some people just plain objectively worse than others through no fault of their own. 3e already has enough problems with character optimization and the like making some characters objectively worse. I don't think we need to get dice in on it, too.

If we both build identical Fighters and then level up, and I roll 15 HP and you roll 18 HP, my Fighter is objectively worse than yours-- identical except down 3 HP. So, yeah, if you want to create character difference by randomly screwing some people over, that's one way to do it, but then you might as well just roll 3d6 for stats; that'll create a whole lot of character difference, right?

Quote from: Xathan Back AgainI'm going to do Fighter/Wizard/Rogue/Cleric first, but expand to the entire 3.X gamut including the Piazo Pathfinder Core Classes and some of my own design.

Fighting Man, Magic-User, and Thief! Cleric can stay. ;)

Seriously, though, maybe this is just the difficulty I was having with deciding on a character for your PF game, but having lots of classes with various class features that all look interesting in various combinations is just confusing to me. It would be a lot more flexible (and maybe more fun?) if it was based around four core classes with you being able to pick and choose your other features via feats-- like, a Gunslinger is just a Fighter who takes more gun-oriented feats, a Witch is just a Wizard who takes ooky witchy feats, and so on. It seems like this way you can get the exact character you want, although balancing it would probably be a little more difficult.

Or maybe this is just my preference for classless/point-buy systems sneaking in. :D

Though I'm not wholly against characters just gaining a set hp amount, it seems that part of the motivation behind it is to eliminate a degree of luck or chance from the game; I think it should be kept in mind that the entire game is already deeply structured by chance, so adding an extra chance in here and there, like hp rolls, is hardly a big deal balance wise.  Take sparkletwist's example of the two fighters with a 3 hp difference.  It's true that on paper one fighter is "objectively worse" than the other.  But put those two fighters in combat, and it's easily possible that the weaker fighter will get a lucky roll on an attack while the stronger fighter gets an unlucky roll.  1d8+3 damage later (or whatever), the difference in hp has been more than equalized.  My point here is that there's no difference between the roll to get hp and the roll to attack; you could see the hp roll as a kind of prologue to the combat itself, a combat round in and of itself, in a certain sense.  In both cases, chance determines the result, not skill or forethought or character optimization; and, moreover, the results of a given attack are, at least in this instance, far more marked than what both players rolled for their hp.

Does that make sense?  Chance already structures the game to an enormous degree, so fighting against it, to a certain extent, is almost to fight against the structure of the game itself.  For those bent on doing that - well, Pathfinder is probably not for you.  Obviously character design still matters a great deal, and we can make the argument that a balance needs to be struck between chance and skill, but I don't think we should seek to do away with chance altogether, and when we do remove an element of chance, we should have very particular reasons for doing so.  To me, one of the most enjoyable parts of combat and whatnot is that feeling of preparing to throw the dice while everyone hopes for a certain result.

I kind of like the middle ground of Iron Heroes hp progression, personally.

EDIT: I'm playing devil's advocate to a certain extent here.  If you want to make hp progression fixed, I don't think it would ruin the game or anything like that!

On the HP issue, I'm with Steerpike - I like the slight randomness in a system that's laden with it. The half system is a middle ground that maintains some similarties - on any given level, the difference between two characters of the same class is smaller than it would be in standard d20. Plus, this factor can be balanced out by increased ability scores, feat selection, etc - and plus, let's be honest, how often are two people of the exact same class built the exact same way with the only difference being hit points EVER seen in the same party? :P

I do think the comparison to rolling 3d6 is inaccurate - your ability scores have far more impact on your character than your hit point total.

Quote from: sparkletwist
Fighting Man, Magic-User, and Thief! Cleric can stay. ;)

Seriously, though, maybe this is just the difficulty I was having with deciding on a character for your PF game, but having lots of classes with various class features that all look interesting in various combinations is just confusing to me. It would be a lot more flexible (and maybe more fun?) if it was based around four core classes with you being able to pick and choose your other features via feats-- like, a Gunslinger is just a Fighter who takes more gun-oriented feats, a Witch is just a Wizard who takes ooky witchy feats, and so on. It seems like this way you can get the exact character you want, although balancing it would probably be a little more difficult.

Or maybe this is just my preference for classless/point-buy systems sneaking in. :D

Balance is the only reason I'm considering a more traditional class structure - however, Pathfinder showed some amazing things that can be done with variant/alternate class features, so it's something I'm more than open to when I get down to class design.

We could do a whole thread on the effects of chance in the game...I have opposing damage and protection rolls...but both with dividing dice...so probablities 'R' us.

Any how, in My accis game, I have an ability called 'use protection'.  and Armor types have a DR and a 'potential protection'


"Protection: All character classes get the Protection Skill when starting out.  That is, they get 1 protection point plus their attribute bonus.  There is a difference between a character's actual protection (i.e., how many points of damage they can absorb after having been hit before they lose Hit Points) and potential protection.  The protection column above contains the maximum potential protection a character can have based upon the armor they are wearing. 

Potential Protection Example 1: A 1st level Fighter, wearing Chain Mail (+DC = 13/Protection = 4) and carrying a Large Shield (+DC = +1/Protection = +1) has an unadjusted DC of 14 to be hit and an unadjusted Potential Protection of 5.  In this example, the Fighter has a Health Score of 11, which results in no adjustment to the Protection Skill, which is +1 at 1st level.  Therefore, while this character has a potential for up to 5 points of protection, at this point, the character only has 1 point of actual protection.   

Potential Protection Example 2: A 5th level Fighter, still equipped with Chain Mail (+DC = 13/Potential Protection = 4) and a Large Shield (+DC = +1/Potential Protection = +1) still has a combined, unadjusted DC of 14 and a combined, unadjusted Potential Protection of 5, as in the first example.  This Fighter, however, has a Health Score of 15, which imparts a +1 bonus on the Protection Skill.  This Fighter is also 5th level, which, according to the Protection Skill progression, imparts a +1 bonus for every 2 levels.  Thus, this Fighter's Actual Protection is 4 out of a Potential Protection of 5 (+1 for 1st level, +1 for the attribute bonus [15 Health score], +1 for 2nd level, +1 for 4th level)."