The Campaign Builder's Guild

[ic=Before the Senate]Senators, indeed a code to limit the powers of this government is a sound proposal. While I find interesting some of the options brought before us by the good Senator Sismondii, I find Consul Basile's draft to be in the best interests of the Republic at this moment.

However, by whom will this "great citizen of Rome" be chosen, should a position in the Senate become vacant?
I propose that the senatores consiliarii decide. Perhaps helped by recomendations of the senators of the Greater Council.[/ic]

[ooc=Orders for Winter 1155]
Military
- Save Upkeep for Militiamen [1 WP] [Or pay it if possible]

Projects
- Contribute funds from my personal finances to the Aqua Virgo project [1 WP]

Labarum Case
- Send an agent to produce a forgery of the Ad Gallinas Albas under Signore Niccolo Capocci name, and replace the original document with the forgery. Obviously, keep the original document in a safe stash in my chambers.
- Attempt to procure the records of the barony now held by Luidolfo de Rubino, or discover if they exist at all
- Attempt to procure the records of other local barons, or discover their existence and whereabouts.
* An amount of 1 WP can be spent here for bribes to access said records
** These points are listed in priority

Naples
- Keep up with the recruitment effort (experienced flax workers)[/ooc]

[ic]Venice is not great because they have valued lineage over ability. Venice is great because they are a port city. Rome is not a port-but Rome is great and was great during the First Republic because it valued ability above all. I support Senator Sismondii's suggestion that on death or vacancy an election be held for a seat from among the Equites, and any then-current senators who are not Equites. Our Senate here is made up of many merchantmen as well as many noblemen. I say this as one of the Senate's oldest members who has children who will no doubt seek my seat-- our Republic may atrophy if those who sit in the chairs do not sit there by talent, but sit there by blood alone. An alternative perhaps could be proposed- each Senator could write a will whereby he directs who should succeed to his seat so that the most talented child or talented friend is selected to succeed rather than merely the first.[/ic]

[ic=Before the Senate]Are you certain, Senator Manzinni? The greatness of a city then depends entirely on its geography? The governance of a city has naught at all to do with its own prosperity? I find this conclusion most doubtful. Indeed, Senator Manzinni, I cannot help but notice that you espouse doubt as to the ability of the heirs of the men of this Senate to govern. Do you imply that our company itself is unfit? We could not assemble a gathering of men more fit for their office should we scour Rome thrice over.

I have yet to see any compelling reason as to why we should institute popular election. Will the popolo in all cases acclaim the most able candidates, as Senator Manzinni suggests? Certainly not. A Senate that is in all cases beholden to the changeable whim of Roman electors will not produce stability or wealth, as I have said. I ask that you consider very seriously, Senators, the dire consequences of this proposition so championed by Senators Manzinni and Sismondii.[/ic]

[ic]Venice certainly is great because of its geography and not because of its government. Rome is a far greater and grander city with a much more illustrious history than drab Venice and Rome did not need good geography to attain that greatness. Before Venice was a port- all roads led to Rome. And Rome was grand during its republic where landholding personages elected leaders, and elected Consuls. Rome was grand too in the early days of the Empire- but succession by talentless heirs led to its downfall.

However, as I just moments before stated, I espouse faith in the Senators to select who they desire to succeed them. There is no reason to be bound to only permit the firstborn son of a Senator to fill his father's seat. You yourself stated that highborn men can make mistakes- why should the Senate be shackled to dealing with an unfit member for even one day before needing to remove that unfit member--when the man's father could have allowed his friend, or second-born to sit in the seat. Are you suggesting that you would remove from Senators power the ability to choose their own successors? Are you stating that we should be bound as a city to the degeneracy of Nero? Of Caligula? Of Senators who were not chosen because of their arete, their greatness, but because simply of their breeding? I have faith in our current Senators to make good decisions to choose worthy successors in their Wills.

And if the will of the Senate is thus, then I could even be so bold as to suggest that on the death of a Senator, then the Equites could select the Senators' successors. I could even find support for allowing the talented popolo grosso (merchants) to be permitted to vote on this matter. I did not, in my recent speech, state that the popolo minuto select the senators. The popolo minuto do not have the time to educate themselves in the matters of the senate and they sadly can be too easily bought by bribes. The Equites are certainly above being influenced by petty bribes. But if the will of the Senate is not thus, then I pose my alternative, discussed before, of allowing the Senators to WILL their seat so that the seats do not by fiat pass to a perhaps unworthy first son- I would allow the senators the choice to choose the best suited man to succeed their greatness.
[/ic]

[ic=Before the Senate]Your suggestion is most unusual, Senator, and perhaps but a moment ago I did not grant it proper consideration for that sole reason. If you will deign to support my proposal, I will allow it to be amended that hereditary right be replaced in proposed regulation by that of the right of Willed Patrimony, and for the position of that of Senator to be rendered and confirmed discrete under the law of Rome, and it's bequeathal unbound from other title or property that may otherwise be passed on. A single caveat only, that if the title is willed to a Roman citizen that is not either of the Order of the Equites or of a family enrolled in the proposed Codex Beneficium, that the appointment be subject to the ratification of the Senate and adlectio.[/ic]

[ic=Before the Senate]
While willfully ignoring what is actually intentioned in the concept of senatory elections does bother me it is not I alone who will decide this nor Manzinni nor you senator. Let us hear what the greater senate has to say on all points offered so far. How sound parts one and two of Senator Basile's codifications? And further what is the senate's views on the replacement of empty chairs? Will we have election by the equites and grasso? Will the senate be hereditary?
[/ic]

[ooc]
Senator Sismondii calls first to vote on the points of Consular authority proposed by Senator Basile. That:

1) The position of Consul shall be divided between Consul ad Interior and Consul ad Exterior as it has been.
2) That consuls shall have primacy in those things falling within the scope of their duties.
3a) Upon a vote of two of every three senators a Consul's actions may called to veto.
3b) A successful veto vote shall be presented before the lesser council and three senators chosen at random from the greater whole who shall with a simple majority pass or suspend the veto.
3c) If vetoed a Consul must no longer pursue the vetoed action.
3d) The Consuls shall be rendered immune to veto as concerns matters of war, civil strife, or disasters inflicted by the wrath of a vengeful God.

Additionally he calls for views on the future of Rome's senate. Will the equites and grasso be the ones to elect new senators (who will first be required to prove their mettle to the senate before becoming electable) or will the senate be limited to the passing on of hereditary titles (Sismondii once again expresses his concern that placing blood before capability risks senatory competence stating that if the son of a senator is truly worthy of his father's place that he would find it easy to be sponsored for election and if his father was truly a great senator indeed he would find his own election easy yet done on his own merit and without forcing the senate to recognize senators who might be unfit)?
[/ooc]

[ic=Before the Senate]I think perhaps you call for consensus pre-emptively, Senator. We still yet consider and devise. But if you would have acclamation now, so be it! Who then will stand for my proposal, with the attendant revisions and caveats that I have put before you? Who will stand for Rome?[/ic]

Quote from: TheMeanestGuest
I think perhaps you call for consensus pre-emptively, Senator. We still yet consider and devise.

[ic=Before the Senate]
Indeed we do Senator, that is why we must hear the opinion of the full senate before we continue. If this is not sound in the eyes of the senate it is doomed from the start. Let us hear what our fellow senators have to say on the matter. It is theirs and not ours alone to decide.
[/ic]

Quote from: TheMeanestGuestadlectio

What exactly is that?

[ic=Before the Senate]
Consul Basile's draft, with the suggested revisions as to the senatorial succession laws, will be good for Rome. It offers limits to Consular power and stability in the Senate.

*Raises from his chair, scanning the crowd of senator*

I follow only the road to prosperity. Who will follow me and Consul Basile on this path?[/ic]

Is a delicto a reference to the Church or god? I can't respond to your proposal TMG until I know for sure what you mean?

[ic=Senate]
I would once again speak against "3d) The Consuls shall be rendered immune to veto as concerns matters of war, civil strife, or disasters inflicted by the wrath of a vengeful God." For we are nearly always under the threat of any of these situations, and it appears to be up to the consuls to determine what is the meaning of "civil strife." If this provision is approved, then the consuls would be able to arrest any of the senate during a time of civil strife. Only later, after damage has perhaps been done, would the senator be released--when two-thirds of his fellows could otherwise have prevented the arrest before anything occurred.

Of provisions 1 through 3d, 3d is the only that troubles me. I stand with Basile on the others.

[for polycarp a question- so we are going to decide policy based on the In-Character votes? If so then I support Willed Patrimony. If we can influence an outsized number of senators so as to affect this election, then I vote for election by equites and grosso.][/ic]

Adlectio was basically just the elevation of someone to the Senate in ancient Rome. It doesn't really mean anything special. Basile just likes to use Latin words from time to time.

[ic=Before the Senate]Our Senators must endeavor to trust our Consuls in times of crisis, for they themselves have elected them for just such purpose. Is it not the prerogative of a Consul to provide firm leadership when Rome most needs it? Further, Civil Strife may clearly be defined as riot by the popolo, or factional struggle by arms of Roman against Roman.  I can certainly sympathize with your concerns, Senator Manzinni, but you present a very specific example. I cannot imagine a Consul of Rome placing a member of the Senate under arrest unless he were clearly criminal or traitor. The intent of immunity in crisis is to avoid lengthy debate that could gravely endanger Rome through delay of action. Perhaps if we were to include additional clarification that such immunity extends only to decree and order of explicit relation to the crisis at hand.[/ic]

LD, your IC interactions make my eyes bleed.

[ic=Senate]
I can support Basile's suggestion that if the title is willed to a Roman citizen that is not either of the Order of the Equites or of a family enrolled in the proposed Codex Beneficium, that the appointment be subject to the ratification of the Senate if the ratification in that case is merely by the majority of the Senate rather than by two-thirds.
[/ic]

It would be awesome if I wasn't up to my eyeballs in work preparing for school starting on Monday, but I'm afraid I am.  What this means is that my contribution to this thread will be rather spotty in the near future.  I will try to put together a Senate response for you over the weekend, but I can't say exactly when I will have time to do the update itself.  Please stay tuned.