The Campaign Builder's Guild

Quote from: SteerpikeLike, an encounter with a giant snake is pretty dull on its own, but an encounter with a giant snake in a warren full of tunnels that slope up and down, prone to caves in and collapses - that could be engaging. In a sense it might be a good exercise for a GM.

The thing is, this challenge is the kind of thing that could be introduced at any level. The tactical challenges here are more based on the players' skill and creativity rather than anything on the character sheet-- which is fine, but it is something that would complement a growth of abilities by level, not really serve as a replacement.

Quote from: SteerpikeIt's my impression that "monster-fighting" isn't really central to the setting, though?

Fair enough, but then I stand by my opinion that Pathfinder may not be the best system choice.

That's true, sparkletwist. Most of the level-dependent aspects of monsters would be in terms of HP, saving throws, etc, not special abilities.

I think Pathfinder would work... OK. Adequately. I can see the advantages and disadvantages. The race/class system seems like a good fit for this kind of setting, and you want a lot of detailed choices for things like arms and armour, I think, which some systems don't provide. I agree it's pushing the envelope of what the system is designed for, though. Ideally to simulate the sort of thing that goes on in Redwall and its ilk you'd want a medium-to-heavy crunch ruleset with fairly refined combat mechanics that doesn't assume magic but does have rules for different races. Mass combat rules and rules for domain management would also be a plus. I know there have been a couple of Game of Thrones roleplaying games done (including a d20 version) that might be quite well-suited, actually. I can see why the Mouse Guard people used Burning Wheel.

Alright I'll give. What do you guys recommend system wise? My experience is with 3rd edition, so....

My sisters boyfriend plays Pathfinder, and he told me how the vigor system works. I also told him about this idea for a class based around the cure wounds spell, and treating it as a special class ability for a healing warrior.

Or I could just cave and make some kind of "magic". Maybe some kind of alchemist variant?

Honestly, for my 2cp, despite my description above, I would still probably stick with Pathfinder, personally - it's familiar, free, and fairly versatile. There will be some rough bits, but I think they can be worked around.

I was also thinking Iron Heroes could work decently, if you can get a copy and wanted to stay d20. It's a d20 variant that specifically doesn't use magic. Not a perfect system, but I used it to run my old Cadaverous Earth campaign, with bits borrowed from 3.5. It assumes human-only, but since it's d20 you can add them in seamlessly.

Allowing the alchemist is a good idea, I think. It tends to fit with the lore of stuff like Redwall (poisoners, healers). If you want a healer-focused Alchemist I'd recommend the Chirurgeon Archetype. Before 6th level they gain both a cure specialization and pain-killers. Alchemists can brew healing potions. Even at 6th level they only have access to 2nd level Extracts so they can't do anything too crazy. And if you wanted to avoid the wilder magical effects you could prune the Formulae list to remove stuff like Reduce and Enlarge. You could also tweak cosmetic descriptions of formulae to make them seem more mundane.

Picking a system in a vacuum, I think that you should pick a system that handles what you want to emphasize in the game. In my opinion, Pathfinder is geared towards dungeon crawling, monster fighting, zero-to-hero tales, and emulating tropes of high fantasy... and not I'm not sure if that's really what this game is going to be about. On the other hand, the system doesn't provide much support for social intrigue or giving character traits very much mechanical weight. It also has clear system biases for some character concepts being better than others, which can hinder creativity at times and potentially lead to frustration.

My own recommendation, to nobody's great surprise here, would be Fate. It doesn't do so well at zero-to-hero tales and generally leans towards a lot less mechanically rich magic, but on the upside it has stronger social mechanics and lets players' roleplayed traits actually gain mechanical relevance. Different races of animals could be emulated pretty readily with properly chosen aspects and stunts.

That said, while I still contend that Pathfinder may not be the best choice, I should also point out that I'm not saying I think it would be bad, either, if it's the system you all enjoy and are familiar with-- if having to learn a new system would rain on your fun, then don't rain on your own fun.

As for Iron Heroes, though, as I can tell, then you're learning a new system and dealing with the wonky flaws of a d20 system anyway, so I don't really see the gain there. That and the tokens are really fiddly and weird.

Yeah, the Iron Heroes tokens are supper fiddly and annoying. Would make more sense in a miniature skirmish game.

I'm also with Sparkletwist on this one (no surprise). But I can't emphasize enough how important it is to understand what you want and what your players want. I love FATE and Sparkle's Asura (ASURA?) systems, but I've also played Pathfinder for as long as it's been out and enjoyed it as well (it's a love-hate relationship most of the time). There are, of course, other systems out there, but I would ask yourself what you and your players want out of the setting, and be fairly specific. Have you looked into the Star Wars Edge of the Empire system? It's pretty well-tailored to Star Wars, but with a bit of creativity you could fit it to any system. I haven't actually given it the going-over I've been meaning to, but it sort of blends Pathfinder crunchiness with some slightly more FATE impromptu, "rules-light" creativity, especially with combat. I'm not sure if it's free or not online, but maybe it'll be up your alley. Just another option!

This might be a bit of a tangent, but how granular are FATE weapons? Is there an equipment list I'm missing? The most I've found is this (and this) which basically splits weapons into four groups and gives the option to tie them to aspects. Unless I'm reading things incorrectly, this means (for example) that a mace and a longsword are mechanically identical so far as the RAW are concerned.

I can see that approach working for plenty of games, but I dunno, there's something dissatisfying about it to me when it comes to medieval combat. Maybe I've got a grognard streak and/or I'm just a bit of a cranky simulationist about some things, but I really like it when each weapon is unique - where a shortbow and a light crossbow are differentiated carefully with things like range, critical range, and reloading times, or where a ranseur, a bill, a guisarme, a halberd, and a spear all have slightly different special abilities.

Just a thought, I dunno. We probably don't want to turn the thread into a "Pathfinder vs. Fate" debate.

Quote from: SteerpikeUnless I'm reading things incorrectly, this means (for example) that a mace and a longsword are mechanically identical so far as the RAW are concerned.

You've read it correctly. As you've observed, this is fine for a lot of games but might not be fine for a grognardy medieval combat game. That said, it seems like it'd be perfectly fine for small talking animal fantasy, at least the way I'm envisioning it.

Good point; it's sort of a matter of tone, in a sense.

Okay, so... I think I've made enough races so far. I'm going to focus on classes.

I still sort of like the idea of a fighter who heals as well with medicine. But I'm also not against the idea of alchemy. I was thinking of an Alchemist variant that also acts as a vast wealth of knowledge. Sort of like a Meister from GoT, or a medieval scholar... or something?

Maybe some kind of customized version of the Bard, or a version of the Loremaster tweaked to be a core class?

Fighter Level    Base Attack Bonus    Fort Save    Ref Save    Will Save    Special
1st    +1    +2    +0    +0    Bonus feat
2nd    +2    +3    +0    +0    Bonus feat, bravery +1
3rd    +3    +3    +1    +1    Armor training
4th    +4    +4    +1    +1    Bonus feat
5th    +5    +4    +1    +1    Weapon training
6th    +6/+1    +5    +2    +2    Bonus feat, bravery +2

So this is the Pathfinder fighting class. I was thinking of an archetype like this.
The
Fighter Level    Base Attack Bonus    Fort Save    Ref Save    Will Save    Special
1st    +1    +2    +0    +0    Grand Medicine, Vow of the Physician
2nd    +2    +3    +0    +0    Bonus feat, bravery +1
3rd     +3    +3    +1    +1    Extraordinary Medicine
4th     +4    +4    +1    +1    Bonus feat
5th    +5    +4    +1    +1    Weapon training
6th    +6/+1    +5    +2    +2    Lengendary Medicine, bravery +2

Grand Medicine: works like Cure Light Wounds, 1/day
Extraordinary Medicine: Cure Moderate Wounds, 1/day Light wounds 2/day
Legendary Medicine: Cure Serious Wounds 1/day Mod. Wounds 1/day Light wounds 3/day

Vow of the Physician (name pending): Basically a Hypocratic Oath.
Also Diplomacy, and Healing, Skills replace Intimidate, and Profession.

this is probably extremely broken. The wisdom of my Elders is welcome.

Okay so I've just had a change of heart on the fantasy elements. I think that magic could be an interesting element. However I still want to try something a bit different than usual Wizard/sorcerer. I also like the idea of incorporating fantasy monsters into the setting. However I'm tired right now so I'll think it through tomorrow.

In case you're wondering, yes I did just come back from seeing The Hobbit 3... And wow I really........ Don't know what to say....

Though probably not ideal for you, there are racial traits for the Hengeyokai of the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) that cover: badger, cat, dog, hare, monkey, rat and racoon dog. Also included are henge based archetypes for barbarian and ranger, as well as a mushakemono (trickster class), though this one has some arcane talents which doesn't fit your "no magic" theme.

Similarly there are Kaidan supplements for Kappa and Tengu, which could be adjusted for turtles and crows/birds. Regarding kappa, check out the Bone Breaker racial paragon class, which is based off kappa folklore for their renowned wrestling and bone-breaking abilities - for an interesting martial class with a unique combat style, as well as the Tengu Hishoken for fighting from treetops, and limited glide/flight abilities.