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D&D Setting (The Meatloaf Setting)

Started by O Senhor Leetz, January 02, 2011, 02:56:18 PM

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Steerpike

Quote from: LeetzWould they become more warlike? Volatile? Rash? Impatient? Vulnerable to corruption and evil deeds?

Ooh, like the Ocampa in Star Trek!

They might become rash assholes. They might also be trying to cram in as much living as possible, running around like kids with hyperactive disorder, having as many new experiences as possible.

If you go with this concept I'd make their lifespans even shorter than 60 or 70, personally - that's barely less than a full human lifespan.

The ancestral memory thing is great. Here's another idea: what if some are possessed by their actual ancestors? Elven ghosts who possess children and body-surf through the ages. Maybe every seventh Elf-child (or something) gets offered up as a vessel to host the spirits of the dead.

O Senhor Leetz

#121
Quote from: Steerpike
Quote from: LeetzWould they become more warlike? Volatile? Rash? Impatient? Vulnerable to corruption and evil deeds?
They might become rash assholes. They might also be trying to cram in as much living as possible, running around like kids with hyperactive disorder, having as many new experiences as possible.

If you go with this concept I'd make their lifespans even shorter than 60 or 70, personally - that's barely less than a full human lifespan.

The ancestral memory thing is great. Here's another idea: what if some are possessed by their actual ancestors? Elven ghosts who possess children and body-surf through the ages. Maybe every seventh Elf-child (or something) gets offered up as a vessel to host the spirits of the dead.

So like 50-60? They come to age around 16, are incredibly active for 25-30 years (adventuring, warring, writing, performing, learning, etc.), then finally settle down and raise their off-spring? Not that they would have much to teach is knowledge as genetic.

That's a good idea. Some rare form of honored-dead.

Additionally, from a social angle, if memories and skills are broadly disseminated paternally/maternally, I would imagine it would lead to a very rigid caste society, where you do what your father did because you are born with the base knowledge of what your father does. Obviously, individuals could change this, but with life so short it may not be worth it.

Or maybe the genetic knowledge is lessened as more children are produced. The first child has 9/10 of his/hers fathers/mothers knowledge, the next has maybe 2/3, the next 1/2, the next 1/4, until finally the 8th or so child receives nothing a must pursue their own life somehow (a good PC story?).

Edit: Or is the genetic memory thing too much, and elves simply live short but eventful lives, as they do not sleep?
Let's go teach these monkeys about evolution.
-Mark Wahlberg

Xathan

Quote from: O Senhor Leetz
To really turn everything on its head, considering the Constitution issue, what if Elves lived the shortest lives of all the races, considering their frailty? *MIND BLOWN*

Crunch-wise, that would make sense, right? As Steerpike said, it's really only Tolkien's influence that makes us automatically think of elves as wise and long-lived.

That would be a crazy change on things, and would be interesting to see! One fun thing to consider - given they are the shortest-lived race, they would also likely be far more numerous than most races as well, or at least not have the typical problem of "elven children are rare." The whole "shortest lifespan" thing is actually a bit of a stroke of genius, since one common element among elves is "So many subraces." If we assume they are the shortest lived race and have a high number of children, mutation would be common, and all the different subraces would suddenly make sense!

QuoteWould they become more warlike? Volatile? Rash? Impatient? Vulnerable to corruption and evil deeds? If, as per 3.5E, elves do not require sleep, a war-band of elves would be terrifying, as they could march and fight around the clock to less disadvantage. Not sleeping would also gives elves approximately %33 more time during their lives to do things (if we figure 8 hours a day are spent asleep).

I could definitely see them becoming all of those things. In fact, if we're going this route, the Elves will start becoming the orcs or goblins of your setting, which would be a great take on it - especially if you keep their typical assumption of beauty, would be a totally different variant on the norm while still falling well into the "meatloaf" feel you want.

QuoteWhat if, to counter their possibly short lives, they were born with ancestral memories and knowledge, so that by the time they are 1 they can speak and learn, thoughtfully practice warfare at 10, so by the time they reach 18 years old they are incredibly skilled and intelligent, even though they may die by the time they reach 60 or 70.

I love this idea. It also would lead to them becoming much more war-like and reckless overall - a mindset of "even if I die, my deeds will live on in our ancestral memory, giving me a form of nigh-immortality no matter what happens to this flesh" could easily develop. It would also allow them to still create beautiful works of art and architecture and all that while still being incredibly warlike, so you could have something similar to the classic elven aestetic while also making them the vicious buggers they're becoming.

Honestly, this is the most interesting take on elves I've seen on awhile. if I ever revive Xeno Fantasum, my "Classic fantasy but different" seting, can I steal this?
AnIndex of My Work

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It's llitul and the brain, llitul and the brain, one is a genius and the other's insane
Proud Receiver of a Golden Dorito
[spoiler=SRD AND OGC AND LEGAL JUNK]UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE POST, NONE OF THE ABOVE CONTENT IS CONSIDERED OGC, EXCEPT FOR MATERIALS ALREADY MADE OGC BY PRIOR PUBLISHERS
Appendix I: Open Game License Version 1.0a
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7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.
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System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Modern System Reference Doument Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Richard Baker, Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Walker.

Unearthed Arcana Copyright 2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, Rich Redman.

Mutants and Masterminds Second Edition Copyright 2005, Green Ronin Publishing; Steve Kenson
Fate (Fantastic Adventures in Tabletop Entertainment) Copyright 2003 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue and Fred Hicks.
Spirit of the Century Copyright 2006 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue, Fred Hicks, and Leonard Balsera
Xathan's forum posts at http://www.thecbg.org Copyright 2006-2011, J.A. Raizman.
[/spoiler]

Steerpike

I like the genetic memory angle, though I wonder whether it actually would result in a caste system given the short lifespans. If life is super short and you mature quickly, wouldn't you want to do as much as possible? As a result Elves might be more like jacks-of-all-trades. Genetic memory might function kinda like Bardic Knowledge - Elves can afford to do a bunch of different things with their lives because they master new skills rapidly, having a base of skills gleaned from their memory. Basically, they don't need to worry much about education and training, they can just go out and do things.

On the other hand medieval serfs probably didn't make it past 50 very often and most led pretty monotonous lives. This would tend to push traditionally "Chaotic" Elf-society pretty strongly into Lawful territory, though.

O Senhor Leetz

#124
Quote from: Steerpike
I like the genetic memory angle, though I wonder whether it actually would result in a caste system given the short lifespans. If life is super short and you mature quickly, wouldn't you want to do as much as possible? As a result Elves might be more like jacks-of-all-trades. Genetic memory might function kinda like Bardic Knowledge - Elves can afford to do a bunch of different things with their lives because they master new skills rapidly, having a base of skills gleaned from their memory. Basically, they don't need to worry much about education and training, they can just go out and do things.

On the other hand medieval serfs probably didn't make it past 50 very often and most led pretty monotonous lives. This would tend to push traditionally "Chaotic" Elf-society pretty strongly into Lawful territory, though.

Maybe just keeping the genetic memories at "they gain skills quickly" would be enough?

Quote from: XathanI love this idea. It also would lead to them becoming much more war-like and reckless overall - a mindset of "even if I die, my deeds will live on in our ancestral memory, giving me a form of nigh-immortality no matter what happens to this flesh" could easily develop. It would also allow them to still create beautiful works of art and architecture and all that while still being incredibly warlike, so you could have something similar to the classic elven aestetic while also making them the vicious buggers they're becoming.

Honestly, this is the most interesting take on elves I've seen on awhile. if I ever revive Xeno Fantasum, my "Classic fantasy but different" seting, can I steal this?

Why thank you sir. I have no qualms with sharing this idea.

As for the rest of the elves' 3.5E fluff, the only other thing I may play with is their affinity for longswords and rapiers. If elves are primarily forest dwellers, it seems like lots of iron would be needed to make what would seemingly be lots of swords as everyone is good with them. Iron means mines, which seem antithetical to the nature-y elves. What about replacing their affinity with blades with an affinity towards short- and long-spears? Less metal, more wood, makes sense. Also, spears are very cool but very underused. The spear could also be the elves "cultural" identifier that plays into legends and ideas of "racial identity" - humans have swords, dwarves have axes, gnomes have hammers, halflings have slings, elves have spears. (Or just give humans spears and elves swords and just figure out the metal part, meteors?, later.)

Additionally, with regards to "Wizard" as favored class, maybe this a result of many elves seeing magic as a way of prolonging their short lives? Not every elf will be a wizard, but kings, princes, and war-leaders may. This would make writing a history easier as they wouldn't have a new king every 20 years. Maybe the most skilled elven wizards do live for hundreds of years, if only through personal skill in magic.
Let's go teach these monkeys about evolution.
-Mark Wahlberg

Steerpike

Quote from: LeetzIron means mines

Actually, not necessarily. Bog iron is a valid alternative and was used extensively throughout the ancient world and well into the middle ages and early modern periods. Rarer though still a noteworthy source is meteoric iron. And, of course, there's alchemy and magic. Elves might be able to transmute other substances into metals.

All that said, spears are criminally underemphasized in most settings despite being way more important than swords for many cultures, and it makes sense for Elves to use them, or even spear-swords hybrids like naginata.

O Senhor Leetz

#126
Quote from: Steerpike
Bog iron.

That's a great idea. And would make total sense.

Also, this is how I imagine elves: http://archive.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/wallpapers/wallpaper_thelonitehermit_1024x768.jpg]http://archive.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/wallpapers/wallpaper_thelonitehermit_1024x768.jpg]http://archive.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/wallpapers/wallpaper_thelonitehermit_1024x768.jpg

Additionally, if anyone is curious as to what is going on, what I'm going is taking the core crunch from 3.5E and then extrapolating the fluff from that information. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm

For example, why is the elven favored class Wizard, or if dwarves and gnomes have higher constitutions why aren't they the longest-lived, or why are halflings so resistant to fear and other ill effects?
Let's go teach these monkeys about evolution.
-Mark Wahlberg

O Senhor Leetz

Some more thoughts:

Do we automatically assume that elves live in the forests just as we assume that they live along time? There's really nothing in the crunch that would suggest they would be better off in a forest than anywhere else. Dwarves, on the other hand, get crunch bonuses to stone/metal things and being underground. Gnomes get 'Speak with animal' as an ability, which would suggest they would be more inclined towards nature.

Also, does anyone have any suggestion on to how enough humans could cross a large ocean to escape a catastrophe and still stand a change landing on a continent full of dwarven and elven kingdoms and empires? You would need lots of boats and I don't want to really to heavily on magic. Thoughts, ideas?
Let's go teach these monkeys about evolution.
-Mark Wahlberg

Steerpike

Elves are usually pretty reclusive/secretive/withdrawn and Dwarves are generally more interested in commerce than conquest. Or they could be. So if humans beached in a land filled with those peoples they might be able to scratch out a place for themselves without too much bloodshed.

Or maybe they didn't, and the human realms are all provinces and client-kingdoms of Elven and Dwarven empires. Humans might basically be a slave-race, a subjugated people, or just seen as the inferiors of Elves and Dwarves.

O Senhor Leetz

Quote from: Steerpike
Or maybe they didn't, and the human realms are all provinces and client-kingdoms of Elven and Dwarven empires. Humans might basically be a slave-race, a subjugated people, or just seen as the inferiors of Elves and Dwarves.

Wouldn't that be interesting...

Also, the more I think about this, the more terrible the basic premise of DnD fluff is. So many assumptions without support in the crunch.
Let's go teach these monkeys about evolution.
-Mark Wahlberg

Ghostman

Honestly, if you're set on deriving a setting from game mechanics then the magic system as-written will be an enormous source of issues. Consider the ease (and cost efficiency) of conjuring food, curing diseases, healing injuries and fixing broken items. To say nothing of the economical implications of using controlled undead and constructs as (virtually cost-free in the long term) labour, or the military/security implications of teleportation, mind reading and shapechanging - to name but a few spells.
¡ɟlǝs ǝnɹʇ ǝɥʇ ´ʍopɐɥS ɯɐ I

Paragon * (Paragon Rules) * Savage Age (Wiki) * Argyrian Empire [spoiler=Mother 2]

* You meet the New Age Retro Hippie
* The New Age Retro Hippie lost his temper!
* The New Age Retro Hippie's offense went up by 1!
* Ness attacks!
SMAAAASH!!
* 87 HP of damage to the New Age Retro Hippie!
* The New Age Retro Hippie turned back to normal!
YOU WON!
* Ness gained 160 xp.
[/spoiler]


O Senhor Leetz

Quote from: Ghostman
Honestly, if you're set on deriving a setting from game mechanics then the magic system as-written will be an enormous source of issues. Consider the ease (and cost efficiency) of conjuring food, curing diseases, healing injuries and fixing broken items. To say nothing of the economical implications of using controlled undead and constructs as (virtually cost-free in the long term) labour, or the military/security implications of teleportation, mind reading and shapechanging - to name but a few spells.

that is a very good point and the more I dig into this, the messier it becomes. I think if this setting's going to have a "familiar yet well-done" feel to it, I may have to take creative license more than I planned on.
Let's go teach these monkeys about evolution.
-Mark Wahlberg

Xathan

Quote from: O Senhor Leetz
Quote from: Ghostman
Honestly, if you're set on deriving a setting from game mechanics then the magic system as-written will be an enormous source of issues. Consider the ease (and cost efficiency) of conjuring food, curing diseases, healing injuries and fixing broken items. To say nothing of the economical implications of using controlled undead and constructs as (virtually cost-free in the long term) labour, or the military/security implications of teleportation, mind reading and shapechanging - to name but a few spells.

that is a very good point and the more I dig into this, the messier it becomes. I think if this setting's going to have a "familiar yet well-done" feel to it, I may have to take creative license more than I planned on.

One option to consider for the above possible problems: the books and RAW don't have anything to say about how common casters are. If you make casters rare enough, their services and time would be a such a premium and the costs would be high enough that it would impact the world less.
AnIndex of My Work

Quote from: Sparkletwist
It's llitul and the brain, llitul and the brain, one is a genius and the other's insane
Proud Receiver of a Golden Dorito
[spoiler=SRD AND OGC AND LEGAL JUNK]UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE POST, NONE OF THE ABOVE CONTENT IS CONSIDERED OGC, EXCEPT FOR MATERIALS ALREADY MADE OGC BY PRIOR PUBLISHERS
Appendix I: Open Game License Version 1.0a
The following text is the property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and is Copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast, Inc ("Wizards"). All Rights Reserved.
1. Definitions: (a)"Contributors" means the copyright and/or trademark owners who have contributed Open Game Content; (b)"Derivative Material" means copyrighted material including derivative works and translations (including into other computer languages), potation, modification, correction, addition, extension, upgrade, improvement, compilation, abridgment or other form in which an existing work may be recast, transformed or adapted; (c) "Distribute" means to reproduce, license, rent, lease, sell, broadcast, publicly display, transmit or otherwise distribute; (d)"Open Game Content" means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity. (e) "Product Identity" means product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content; (f) "Trademark" means the logos, names, mark, sign, motto, designs that are used by a Contributor to identify itself or its products or the associated products contributed to the Open Game License by the Contributor (g) "Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content. (h) "You" or "Your" means the licensee in terms of this agreement.
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14 Reformation: If any provision of this License is held to be unenforceable, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable.
15 COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Fudge 10th Anniversary Edition Copyright 2005, Grey Ghost Press, Inc.; Authors Steffan O'Sullivan and Ann Dupuis, with additional material by Jonathan Benn, Peter Bonney, Deird'Re Brooks, Reimer Behrends, Don Bisdorf, Carl Cravens, Shawn Garbett, Steven Hammond, Ed Heil, Bernard Hsiung, J.M. "Thijs" Krijger, Sedge Lewis, Shawn Lockard, Gordon McCormick, Kent Matthewson, Peter Mikelsons, Robb Neumann, Anthony Roberson, Andy Skinner, William Stoddard, Stephan Szabo, John Ughrin, Alex Weldon, Duke York, Dmitri Zagidulin
System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Modern System Reference Doument Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Richard Baker, Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Walker.

Unearthed Arcana Copyright 2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, Rich Redman.

Mutants and Masterminds Second Edition Copyright 2005, Green Ronin Publishing; Steve Kenson
Fate (Fantastic Adventures in Tabletop Entertainment) Copyright 2003 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue and Fred Hicks.
Spirit of the Century Copyright 2006 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue, Fred Hicks, and Leonard Balsera
Xathan's forum posts at http://www.thecbg.org Copyright 2006-2011, J.A. Raizman.
[/spoiler]

Steerpike

There are some guidelines in the DMG for how common casters are, I think - stuff like "here's the max level of caster for this population size," anyway. But they're not definitive by any means.