Who Will Save Us Now? Discussion and Interest Thread

sparkletwist · March 23, 2015, 06:43:58 PM

I haven't filled in what options my base has, yet, because you said you were going to rework the costs of things. However, I don't think that should interfere greatly in turn 1, since I'm definitely not going to opt for a loose confederation or anything like that.

Xathan · March 24, 2015, 02:42:24 PM

Quote from: sparkletwist
I haven't filled in what options my base has, yet, because you said you were going to rework the costs of things. However, I don't think that should interfere greatly in turn 1, since I'm definitely not going to opt for a loose confederation or anything like that.

That's totally fine. :)

Working on the turn tonight. We are on track to start tomorrow!

Xathan · March 26, 2015, 03:19:09 AM

Update: The first post was 90% done...and then I realized I had made a pretty major mistake while writing up the turn that required me to go back and rewrite a chunk of it. I'm going to try to get it out before I go to bed tonight, but right now it's looking less likely, so I'm letting everyone know I'm terribly sorry for the slight delay and will have it up at some point Thursday night/Friday morning if I can't get it finished tonight.

sparkletwist · March 27, 2015, 11:05:46 AM

Yay!

I wonder if the Underdeep-ish strict spoilerized secrecy for everything is really needed, though, since the game is not (really) PVP. Games like RR seem to do fine with a lot more out in the open, anyway.

Steerpike · March 27, 2015, 11:46:45 AM

I guess it depends on how much possibility there is for rivalry and/or conflict. RR does work well, although it has pretty limited mechanics.

Xathan · March 27, 2015, 11:46:58 AM

Quote from: sparkletwist
Yay!

I wonder if the Underdeep-ish strict spoilerized secrecy for everything is really needed, though, since the game is not (really) PVP. Games like RR seem to do fine with a lot more out in the open, anyway.

I decided to go with the strict spoilerized secrecy (love the alliteration there) to give control of information flow between teams to players. Many superhero stories revolve around teams crossing paths and misunderstandings ensuing because of asymmetrical flow of information. Also, there may be some missions where a player will have the option to gain a large chunk of Wealth and/or Reputation, but doing so will increase the Doom Counter, and I want players to be able to make that choice without other teams knowing they made it without research or other, in game methods. But really, above all else, I just like the flow of information between characters being in control of the individual players as opposed to a default of everyone gets it. If, as the game goes on, it doesn't really benefit the story and only results in me typing [ spoiler] [/ spoiler], I'll probably make it go away. :P

Steerpike · March 27, 2015, 12:24:22 PM

The Doom Counter thing is a great point. If I know that other players are taking actions that could result in the Doom Counter increasing I might not take the same actions. It adds a cool game theory element to everything if we don't know what others are doing.

EDIT: My soundtracks for this :P

sparkletwist · March 27, 2015, 01:27:30 PM

I think the big consideration here is to what extent we want the players to be "in on it." That is, to what extent things like dramatic irony should matter. After all, just because something is put in the open doesn't mean that characters automatically know it simply because players do. Personally, I like having more to read, and I like seeing the story taking shape-- you, as the GM, get to do that anyway, but it seems a shame the rest of us don't. I also feel like since we're already trusting players to not just go reading stuff they shouldn't, we might as well go the extra mile and trust them to do good things with the added information, not bad things. Admittedly, my team cares very little about the Doom Counter, so that whole consideration doesn't matter to me-- increases to it wouldn't matter in my decision making at all.

As an aside, I'm glad to know there will be missions that give a rather large chunk of wealth, though. I do have to say I was pretty underwhelmed at the possibilities of wealth that could be gained, relative to the costs of things, so more options will be nice.

Steerpike · March 27, 2015, 01:32:41 PM

Irony is good, but so is suspense (and surprise) - a twist isn't really a twist if we can see it coming. That said I also like having stuff to read.

Suggestion for a middle ground we might experiment with: what if we could read each others' orders only after the current turn has passed and the update posted? This way surprises are still surprises, everything is still suspenseful, but we can all go look at what's going on in one another's bases. Secret information that needs to be for the player/narrator's eyes only even after a turn has elapsed could be marked as such.

I do think that the narrator's briefs should absolutely be kept spoilered at least for a turn. There's already one possible mission in my list that has me deciding whether ot not to let another team in on things.

sparkletwist · March 27, 2015, 01:55:36 PM

Well, I admit I'm pretty biased in one direction here, so I won't keep ranting. You all know what I'm going to say anyway. :grin:

I will ask, though, Steerpike. Does having everything out in the open in RR really change anything, ultimately? Like, do you think it actually matters, or does everyone just assume that other characters won't act on information they can't reasonably be expected to have?

Steerpike · March 27, 2015, 03:06:15 PM

The thing about RR is that almost all of the gameplay is epistolary - it's either letters or speeches. The actual orders usually just reflect those two things. In this game, characters move around and could be competing for objectives. It's not really a game that's centrally about talking and persuasion in the same way as RR.

There are also some spoiler tags in RR. I don't read other players' senatorial inquests, as Polycarp suggests we shouldn't. He's also made clear that particularly secret orders should be PMed.

I think hidden information does change things, and I could imagine a version of RR where everything is spoiler-tagged and only the public speeches are available for everyone to read... there are certainly schemes that might be kept secret etc. I don't know whether this would be "better" or "worse," but it would definitely feel different.

LD · March 27, 2015, 09:21:06 PM

QuoteGames like RR seem to do fine with a lot more out in the open, anyway.

There is a significant amount that is not out in the open.

We actually are not supposed to read other players Orders or anything that is not addressed to us. We just do not use spoiler tags very often.

There is also a not insignificant amount of game text that is exchanged via PM- I've had more than a few intra-turn updates.

LD · March 27, 2015, 09:25:32 PM

Quote from: Steerpike
The Doom Counter thing is a great point. If I know that other players are taking actions that could result in the Doom Counter increasing I might not take the same actions. It adds a cool game theory element to everything if we don't know what others are doing.

EDIT: My soundtracks for this :P

In that vein... this does not fit my team thematically, but it's still very relevant for the game :P. Its villains, anyway.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ_dZrDECUs

QuoteSuggestion for a middle ground we might experiment with: what if we could read each others' orders only after the current turn has passed and the update posted?

That's what I did in Underdeep for competitors who were not adjacent to me. That said, some people have long term plans that will be spoiled by reading that information--if a person believes that they would act on that knowledge, it would probably be best for that person to avoid reading.

sparkletwist · March 27, 2015, 11:12:20 PM

Quote from: LDWe actually are not supposed to read other players Orders or anything that is not addressed to us.

Well, it says this:

Quote from: RRIf a letter isn't addressed to your character, your character doesn't know about it, period. I have a very high opinion of the people on the CBG and I trust them not to abuse the forum format to metagame. That said, we can't always help ourselves, and I realize it may be necessary to conduct some business by PM - this is fine, but whenever something can be in the thread, it should be in the thread. Most things you do won't be secret anyway - rumors are the fastest moving thing in medieval Rome, and any business you conduct that's not heavily concealed is probably going to get out.

My interpretation of that is not that it's saying "don't read it," but rather it's saying "don't abuse the information." In a game where Media is an actual stat, we should probably assume that news travels fast, anyway...

Quote from: LDThat's what I did in Underdeep for competitors who were not adjacent to me.

I don't think you were supposed to do that, technically... but it's not like anyone could stop you or even knew about it. And it didn't do any harm and you obviously didn't metagame anything.

So I think you've kind of proven my point. :grin:

LD · March 28, 2015, 12:06:48 AM

Quotedon't think you were supposed to do that, technically..

I agree. I was not supposed to do that-I figured it was harmless to do for the people who were not adjacent but there was still a risk because some of them could have been networking and plotting against me in a grand design over multiple turns. I would not have, to the best of my ability, metagamed that and attempted to mitigate any risk of that by plotting out my general plan for builds for a few weeks ahead of time, so it would not be affected.

Here, however, if it bothers you that information is secret, then even under the current rules as written, you can talk with another group and share information, link your computer networks so you automatically share--that way you have an in-game reason to be able to read certain people's posts and not others. I don't see a problem with Xathan's suggestion, given that we can agree on turn 1 to auto-share with each other if our teams are compatible.

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