Who Will Save Us Now? Discussion and Interest Thread

Steerpike · April 16, 2015, 12:40:54 AM

Take your time, don't worry about it. And definitely don't worry about making sloppy/pragmatic design decisions. I'm sure we can retcon stuff and roll with the punches. None of us have paid for this game, so you don't owe us anything.

In terms of screwing over a couple of players, what do you mean specifically? I can't speak for anyone else but we're so early in the game that I doubt any of us would have any issue with altering our customization options/archetypes. I'd be happy to rewrite characters or re-do my base or whatever.

Xathan · April 16, 2015, 12:47:07 AM

Quote from: Steerpike
In terms of screwing over a couple of players, what do you mean specifically? I can't speak for anyone else but we're so early in the game that I doubt any of us would have any issue with altering our customization options/archetypes. I'd be happy to rewrite characters or re-do my base or whatever.

It's specifically impacts Loose Confederation, so it's a bit deeper than most. I'm still trying to find a good solution, but if not, plan B "everyone now gets 3 free base customization options, and each extra Loose Confederation hero is 1" (I name plans very literally) will go into effect, meaning the players that picked Loose Confederation can keep things exactly as is with no penalty, or can sub out one of their Loosely Affiliated heroes now and get two free base customization options now and pick up more later.

Xathan · April 16, 2015, 12:48:00 AM

Quote from: SteerpikeTake your time, don't worry about it. And definitely don't worry about making sloppy/pragmatic design decisions. I'm sure we can retcon stuff and roll with the punches. None of us have paid for this game, so you don't owe us anything.

Thanks. :)

Quote from: Steerpike
In terms of screwing over a couple of players, what do you mean specifically? I can't speak for anyone else but we're so early in the game that I doubt any of us would have any issue with altering our customization options/archetypes. I'd be happy to rewrite characters or re-do my base or whatever.

It's specifically impacts Loose Confederation, so it's a bit deeper than most. I'm still trying to find a good solution, but if not, plan B "everyone now gets 3 free base customization options, and each extra Loose Confederation hero is 1" (I name plans very literally) will go into effect, meaning the players that picked Loose Confederation can keep things exactly as is with no penalty, or can sub out one of their Loosely Affiliated heroes now and get two free base customization options now and pick up more later.

Steerpike · April 16, 2015, 01:18:02 AM

Sounds pretty reasonable to me, though I'm not Loosely Affiliated so perhaps I don't have the best perspective.

Rhamnousia · April 16, 2015, 08:42:38 AM

I don't know how long Steerpike was working on the mechanics for Underdeep before he started it, but unless you naturally secrete perfectly-balanced systems like sparkletwist, a month seems like a pretty tight schedule to go from a bare-bones concept to a fully-ready game. I'm personally fine with the option of giving everyone three customization options and making Loose Confederation worth more because it's a pretty potent option that gives you a more flexible team right out of the gate and the potential to get two permanent members for the price of one.

sparkletwist · April 16, 2015, 01:07:37 PM

Quote from: Superbrightunless you naturally secrete perfectly-balanced systems like sparkletwist

:suprised:

But seriously. I agree with everyone else. You should take your time, and don't feel any pressure, because there isn't any. :)

Steerpike · April 16, 2015, 02:10:43 PM

Quote from: SuperbrightI don't know how long Steerpike was working on the mechanics for Underdeep before he started it

Quite awhile. And "balanced" is not an adjective I would use to describe Underdeep!

LD · April 18, 2015, 10:57:10 PM

Re:

QuoteFor example, I realized the "Cost increase" method of base customization options was bad and finally tonight settled on a method of base customization I am semi-happy with, but it means that my options are "screw a couple players" or "give everyone but a couple players some extra customization options unless they decide to radically alter their team decisions." So my decision was "Say it's grandfathered in and that they don't have to pay the extra cost" which is not good design, it's lazy design based on fear, and would probably have caused the game to become a rickshaw mess that collapsed a few turns in because of balance issues. This has been compounded by the looming deadline I gave you all and myself, and that same anxiety has also prevented me from responding to anyone's request for responses from their contacts and posting anything else I may want to post on the CBG because fear of looking like I'm not working on WWSUN (For example, Superbright and I have been PMing back and forth heavily about Casus Belli, and I'd like to write up and share that stuff with everyone)

An idea about base customization revision:

What about:

[ic]
-Reputation operates in reputation bands. It does not disappear. It just keeps going up, like experience. Players can compare their reputations as a measure of their general 'success' and bragging rights. Higher reputation unlocks certain bonuses to be available to be taken/spent.
-Wealth can be spent.

This differentiates the types of resources.

Then:

Loose Confederation - Your team is less of a cohesive unit, and more of a, well, loose confederation of individuals. You add two additional heroes to your roster, but your team cap is still kept at 4 heroes.
Effects.
(1) Add 2 additional heroes to your roster.
(2) Gain Reputation at 75% the normal rate because you do not have a cohesive branding- your group has its private interests which may not always work towards the brand and which may dilute the branding power.
(3) A loose confederation, however, provides flexibility. Each week, you choose which 4 members are active (or 5 or 6 if you have unlocked that number of members).
(4) If you unlock the ability to have a roster of 5 heroes, you gain an additional Loose Confederation member. (but still need to pay the 100 wealth per member).
(5) When you unlock 6 heroes, and then 8 (every even number of heroes), you gain 2 additional Loose Confederation members (but still need to pay the 100 wealth per member).
(6) 10% chance to have a "Focus" week where 1 of your confederation must be played or negatives occur. So, eliminate the complication where they have crises based around the extra confederation members- or make it not a *negative* but another interesting feature- you as a GM may decide that in week 4, member X needs to be played- so you tell the player that Member X has this crisis, do you want to confront it, or risk losing him to prison and reputation, or if this happens twice, falling out of the confederation. (e.g. only have that issue come up every 5 weeks or so).
[/ic]

The below wealth estimates are probably out of line. proper amounts will depend on how much you plan to divvy out. I could probably brainstorm more but I just posited a few items from the top of my head.

[ic=Costs]
Everyone starts with 10 Reputation and 10 Wealth, AND they each get to choose 2 of the below customization expenditures for free at character creation.

[ic]Basic Customization Expenditures[/ic]

Loose Confederation: (See above Description) 2 initial extra members.
-100 wealth cost (100 for each of the two initial new members) for integrating computer networks and other ancillary costs to maintain your network above and beyond the costs that others pay for each additional loose confederation member (you get 2 to start if you take this at level 1). If you take this after the creation
-100 Reputation to unlock this unless it is taken as the free option.

Advanced Training Room: Your Training facilities go beyond the normal ones used by most teams, and provide full on holography displays and tactical readouts. You can spend a week in training against a particular threat that you have already researched. At the end of it, make a tactics roll using the highest of all members present. If it beats a DC 15, all members of the team that participated in the training get a +2 bonus to all attack rolls and both defensive scores the next time they face that threat.
-500 Wealth

Advanced Security System: The basic security system that comes with most bases is really just a more advanced version of home security. The Advanced Security System, however, comes with several non-lethal deterrents to protect against attacks on the base, and can alert the team of threats with enough warning to give them a chance to gain a surprise round against the intruders.
-500 Wealth

Research AI: The Research AI is an advanced artificial intelligence that assists with research tasks. When used by anyone with a research skill, the AI provides a +2 bonus to any research checks. Even without someone actively working with it, it can make checks on its own with a +3, though the AI takes a bit longer to sort though what is important and not on its own, taking two full weeks to complete research tasks solo. 500 Wealth.
-500 Wealth

Gadgeterium Unlocks the ability to construct bizarre and wicked gadgets.
Options during use: (4 weeks to add +1 to a weapon's damage) (4 weeks to add +1 to an armor's defense) (5 weeks to create a special item)
-500 Wealth

Laboratory: You have a Lab capable of handling scientific, forensic or mystic pursuits (choose one). When using your Lab, you can do research much faster, allowing you to do research on the same turn you act, although you still will not get the results of that research until the next week (So if you're researching Baron Death, you can take a week to research him AND make a media apperance. You could also attack him that week, but you wouldn't gain the benefits of the research against him). This upgrade can be taken multiple team. Each time, choose a different focus for it.
-500 Wealth

Mentor: You gain a mentor who helps your team learn and grow. A mentor is a separate character that does not participate in combat - it could be a retired hero, or the "Creator" if your team, or some other role - but it does provide you access to an individual who can do tasks around base on his own. A mentor has a +4 in 2 of Science, Occult, Investigation, or Tactics. The wealth represents some money you set aside to protect the Mentor since association with you can tend to be dangerous for others' health.
-100 Reputation & 100 wealth (1st Mentor)
-200 Reputation & 100 wealth (2nd Mentor)
-500 Reputation & 300 wealth (3rd mentor)

Contacts:: Gain an additional contact, like the contacts rules for police contact (police, military, etc.) They can help ('fix' things for you in their area of expertise from time to time, GMs discretion (max 2 per turn). The wealth expenditures are general expenditures that happen in becoming noticed by the Contact's orbit. Eg. you buy regular cops coffee. You take the Captain out to a play.
-100 Reputation & 100 wealth (1st)
-200 Reputation & 100 wealth (2nd)
-500 Reputation & 200 wealth (3rd)
-1000 Reputation & 200 wealth (4th)
-1500 Reputation & 300 wealth (5th)
-2500 Reputation & 500 wealth (6th)

[ic]Advanced Customization Expenditures
These may only be taken after character creation.[/ic]

Additional Hero: Add 1 additional hero. May take in place of Advanced Hero but NOT in addition to it.
-50 wealth
-400 reputation for 1st
-800 reputation for 2d
-1800 reputation for 3rd
-2500 reputation for 4th

Advanced Hero: May take in place of Additional Hero but NOT in addition to it for each 'level up' (one could take Additional hero for 1st advance, then advanced hero's 2nd advance, then additional hero's 3rd advance (but not the 2nd advance)). This option exists to balance out the benefit of additional heroes for players who do not want large teams.
Advance several of your heroes' skills. (codify the amounts later to balance it).
-500 reputation for 1st time
-1000 reputation for 2d time
-1500 reputation for 3rd time
-2000 reputation for 4th time.

Additional Super Jet: By default, a team starts with one Super Jet. This customization options gives them a second one, allowing them to respond to two locations on the globe in a single week!
-1000 wealth per jet.
-500 reputation to unlock.

Teleporter Move instantly to another teleporter! Useless unless you have allies who also build these amazing creations.
-2000 wealth
-500 reputation to unlock.
-Advanced Research AI or Mastermind special project (something like this).

Advanced Research Laboratory
-1000 wealth
-Laboratory (Scientific)
-500 reputation to unlock (attract scientists) or Mastermind stays at home to construct for 5 weeks.

Space-Jet: As the super-jet, but is capable of orbital flight or even flight to nearby worlds! This changes an existing Super-Jet, which still must be purchased normally.
-500 wealth (for the upgrade)
-Gadgeterium
-3 Weeks Development (2 weeks if spend 1000 wealth)

[/ic]

Steerpike · May 18, 2015, 11:53:56 PM

Absolutely no pressure at all, but any thoughts on when this might start up again? Anything we could do to contribute?

Xathan · May 19, 2015, 03:45:53 AM

Quote from: Steerpike
Absolutely no pressure at all, but any thoughts on when this might start up again? Anything we could do to contribute?

No pressure taken. :)

Right now I'm looking at having some kind of update, even if it's just a status update, by the beginning of June. My current work schedule is killing me, and I haven't had the energy to do much on it for a bit.

As far as things you all could do...at the moment, not that I can think of, because my brain has gotten scrambled. :P I'll get that together and have a more concrete answer by the update date.

The Campaign Builder's Guild

News:

Who Will Save Us Now? Discussion and Interest Thread

Steerpike

Xathan

Xathan

Steerpike

Rhamnousia

sparkletwist

Steerpike

LD

Steerpike

Xathan