The Campaign Builder's Guild

Give them these abilities since the class presented  is only a modified bard. It doesn't fit the archtypical Oracle, or Sage. It does fit a Gypsy though. If this is the way you want to go then go for it, but it has most of the things you said you wanted to avoid in your original post.

Like I said in my last post it doesn't have to be a template, though I sitll think it would be easier.

Since you want to make a class and you don't really want to give them spellcasting I suggest giving them a few spell like abilities. Make the spell-like abilties themed and give the player the option to select the theme of their character. (I presented a few in my previous post)

Hit Die: d6
Class Skills: Mostly INT and WIS based skills with a few DEX based peppered in.
Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Average I would give them the Sorcerer and Wizard BAB progression.
Saves: Fort: Poor; Reflex: Good; Will: Good


I say a lower BAB because not all Seers (Oracles, Sages, Diviners, etc) want to fight or are they good at it. Those that do you can take the path of battle (using name from previous post) and get Attack bonuses (maybe half their level), AC bonuses (half their level), and maybe scaling True Strike uses per day (like rage). This would make a Seer that uses his precognitive abilites to fight. Another Seer may be a peaceful person that uses his abilities to view future events (Augury, Scrying, Clairvoyance, Foresight, Moment of Prescience). One Seer may have found the ability to speak with the world around him (Tongues, Speak with Animals, Commune with nature, Speak with Plants, Contact other Planes, Telepathic Bond) While another is able to see their environment differently (See Inivisible, Arcane Sight, Greater Arcane Sight, True Seeing, Lengend Lore, Vision).

All I did was go through the list of Divination spells and group them with a theme. I left out the detects because you said you didn't like them.

It also hits all the points you asked for in your first post:
Hand full of spells: Check as spell like abilities
No Spellcasting: This way you have a class without any spellcasting progression, they have spell like abilities.
Archtypes: You can make the archtypical Oracle, Sage, Gypsie, or other Diviner.
What can they do in combat: You can give them some minor abilities to add to a party member's Attack bonus or AC by trading some of theirs. They could have a better chance of knowing a creatures weakness. Ranged aid another attempts (they give information, mentally or verbally that helps another party member grapple, disarm, trip, etc... You can give them minor abilities in between their main ability that helps the other party members. Not every class has to be great in combat.

Decisions, decisions.... *Sighs* What you say is true, Poseidon, all those things you described fit my original idea... And wow, now I really don't know what to do. You see, before I even posted this idea in the first place, I was battling myself between the exact same 2 options you two guys present; I figured they'd make interesting melee characters... but at the same time, that wouldn't fit the whole elder, wiser, vision I had for them. The problem I had with the latter was figuring out what they would do during a fight... Which led to this.

I appreciate what all of you have said, especially you two. I think I need to sit and really figure out what I actually want this class to be, but these ideas have been tremendously helpful, as they have helped me envision the end result. Thanks again.

Make two Seer classes. One aggressive and the other passive. :)

Quote from: PoseidonGive them these abilities since the class presented  is only a modified bard. It doesn't fit the archtypical Oracle, or Sage. It does fit a Gypsy though. If this is the way you want to go then go for it, but it has most of the things you said you wanted to avoid in your original post.

Like I said in my last post it doesn't have to be a template, though I sitll think it would be easier.

Modified bard? It only looks that way by coincidence. I'm building this from the ground up. The only thing I actively copied from the bard is the spell slot progresion.

How does my creation emulate a gypsy? I didn't add perform (dance) anywhere.
What would allow the creation of a character that could also be defined as a sage or Oracle?

QuoteSince you want to make a class and you don't really want to give them spellcasting I suggest giving them a few spell like abilities. Make the spell-like abilties themed and give the player the option to select the theme of their character. (I presented a few in my previous post)

Well, we could create a modified warlock. But let's finnish the vancian spellcaster first.

QuoteHit Die: d6
Class Skills: Mostly INT and WIS based skills with a few DEX based peppered in.
Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Average I would give them the Sorcerer and Wizard BAB progression.
Saves: Fort: Poor; Reflex: Good; Will: Good

Looks like mine so far.

QuoteI say a lower BAB because not all Seers (Oracles, Sages, Diviners, etc) want to fight or are they good at it. Those that do you can take the path of battle (using name from previous post) and get Attack bonuses (maybe half their level), AC bonuses (half their level), and maybe scaling True Strike uses per day (like rage). This would make a Seer that uses his precognitive abilites to fight. Another Seer may be a peaceful person that uses his abilities to view future events (Augury, Scrying, Clairvoyance, Foresight, Moment of Prescience). One Seer may have found the ability to speak with the world around him (Tongues, Speak with Animals, Commune with nature, Speak with Plants, Contact other Planes, Telepathic Bond) While another is able to see their environment differently (See Inivisible, Arcane Sight, Greater Arcane Sight, True Seeing, Lengend Lore, Vision).

I only presented a possible spell list, while assigning each spell a level apropriate to its power. We could have the spells set up like old AD&D cleric spheres.

QuoteAll I did was go through the list of Divination spells and group them with a theme. I left out the detects because you said you didn't like them.

It also hits all the points you asked for in your first post:
Hand full of spells: Check as spell like abilities
No Spellcasting: This way you have a class without any spellcasting progression, they have spell like abilities.
Archtypes: You can make the archtypical Oracle, Sage, Gypsie, or other Diviner.

It doesn't apear to hold any solid abilites.

QuoteWhat can they do in combat: You can give them some minor abilities to add to a party member's Attack bonus or AC by trading some of theirs. They could have a better chance of knowing a creatures weakness. Ranged aid another attempts (they give information, mentally or verbally that helps another party member grapple, disarm, trip, etc... You can give them minor abilities in between their main ability that helps the other party members.

First, bards have the exclusive ability to make their alies stronger by being useless. Other mages have to use up a few spells and money on magic item creation to help the party. Let's keep it that way for this character.
Second, determining a creature's weakness is simple. You apply different methods to eleminate the creature untill you succeed. More on this later.
Third, I've only used the aid another action once. With a cohort. It's almost always more effective to directly apply your own abilites than to use the aid another action.

QuoteNot every class has to be great in combat.

Wrong. Dead wrong. And no amount of necromancy is going to change that.
The entire experiance and level system of D&D is based apon the concept that every character and monster has a certain level of power that it brings to bear to overcome whatever it has to overcome. Specifics loose to other specifics because of what type of power they have, and what type of defences they have.
There are six methods to overcoming chalanges.

Use an effect that arbitrarily creates uselsessness. Save-or-Die spells, or battle field-controlers*Hit for lots of dammage. Charge-tastic builds, druids, giants, TWF+Sneak Attack, blaster mages, warlocks.*Negate abilities to affect you while slowly causing damage. Battlefield controlers, graplers, defence mages.*Have a massive HP pool and/or virtual immunity to certain attack forms, and chip away at your opponants. Certain monsters, monks, combat oriented clerics.*Make your friends stronger than the monsters. Buffer mages, healing oriented spellcasters, combat oriented clerics.*Have more monsters. Summoners, druids, undead crafters, creatures that create spawn, goblins.

A character that cannot bring one of these abilites to a fight, dies or get's dropped by the party for a more useful character. Everything else is way too much at the DM's mercy to be reliable. This includes knowing about the impending apocalypse. You have to be able to deafeat the cultists to stop the apocalypse.

Right now, what I've created doesn't bring any of these to the table. Sure he's got a few buffs, a couple could even be awesome in the right circumstances. But as it stands, this character class right now only has story effects.
I plan to have the character's nich be completely handled by class abilities. And that means multy-classing is going to be very detrimental to this character's combat abilites.

I do apologize about the modified bard comment. It didn't come out as I meant. I was saying that if he goes with the class you are presenting then it should be a party buffer.

Quote from: the_takenHow does my creation emulate a gypsy? I didn't add perform (dance) anywhere.
What would allow the creation of a character that could also be defined as a sage or Oracle?

Out of the three I would say Gypsies are the more aggressive and that is what you have presented. Not all sages are going to be fighters. Why not give the Seer perform? Performance could be essential for a Seer wanting to make a living palm reader, or reading someone's future.

Quote

QuoteHit Die: d6
Class Skills: Mostly INT and WIS based skills with a few DEX based peppered in.
Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Average I would give them the Sorcerer and Wizard BAB progression.
Saves: Fort: Poor; Reflex: Good; Will: Good

Looks like mine so far.

I only presented a possible spell list, while assigning each spell a level apropriate to its power. We could have the spells set up like old AD&D cleric spheres.
[/quote]

QuoteAll I did was go through the list of Divination spells and group them with a theme. I left out the detects because you said you didn't like them.

It also hits all the points you asked for in your first post:
Hand full of spells: Check as spell like abilities
No Spellcasting: This way you have a class without any spellcasting progression, they have spell like abilities.
Archtypes: You can make the archtypical Oracle, Sage, Gypsie, or other Diviner.

It doesn't apear to hold any solid abilites.
[/quote]

QuoteWhat can they do in combat: You can give them some minor abilities to add to a party member's Attack bonus or AC by trading some of theirs. They could have a better chance of knowing a creatures weakness. Ranged aid another attempts (they give information, mentally or verbally that helps another party member grapple, disarm, trip, etc... You can give them minor abilities in between their main ability that helps the other party members.

First, bards have the exclusive ability to make their alies stronger by being useless. Other mages have to use up a few spells and money on magic item creation to help the party. Let's keep it that way for this character.
[/quote]
Second, determining a creature's weakness is simple. You apply different methods to eleminate the creature untill you succeed. More on this later.
[/quote]Third, I've only used the aid another action once. With a cohort. It's almost always more effective to directly apply your own abilites than to use the aid another action.[/quote]

QuoteNot every class has to be great in combat.

Wrong. Dead wrong. And no amount of necromancy is going to change that.
The entire experiance and level system of D&D is based apon the concept that every character and monster has a certain level of power that it brings to bear to overcome whatever it has to overcome. Specifics loose to other specifics because of what type of power they have, and what type of defences they have.
There are methods to overcoming chalanges.

Use an effect that arbitrarily creates uselsessness. Save-or-Die spells, or battle field-controlers*Hit for lots of dammage. Charge-tastic builds, druids, giants, TWF+Sneak Attack, blaster mages, warlocks.*Negate abilities to affect you while slowly causing damage. Battlefield controlers, graplers, defence mages.*Have a massive HP pool and/or virtual immunity to certain attack forms, and chip away at your opponants. Certain monsters, monks, combat oriented clerics.*Make your friends stronger than the monsters. Buffer mages, healing oriented spellcasters, combat oriented clerics.*Have more monsters. Summoners, druids, undead crafters, creatures that create spawn, goblins.

A character that cannot bring one of these abilites to a fight, dies or get's dropped by the party for a more useful character. Everything else is way too much at the DM's mercy to be reliable. This includes knowing about the impending apocalypse. You have to be able to deafeat the cultists to stop the apocalypse.
[/quote]
Right now, what I've created doesn't bring any of these to the table. Sure he's got a few buffs, a couple could even be awesome in the right circumstances. But as it stands, this character class right now only has story effects.
I plan to have the character's nich be completely handled by class abilities. And that means multy-classing is going to be very detrimental to this character's combat abilites.
[/quote]

I am not making a class, since Hellraiser has stated in his first post that he is creating the class. The only thing I am presenting are suggestions.

I'm sorry I came off as agressive in my last post. Disagreeing with people isn't my strong point. I felt threatened by your divine wetness, and overcompensated.

Instead of chucking mudd at each other, let's compare each other's ideas and come to an intelligent conclusion based apon what type of characters we ALL want from this class.

Er... Maybe we should first decide what type of combat styles the class can be built for, then figure out how he does it.[list=1]*Use an effect that arbitrarily creates uselsessness. Save-or-Die spells, or battle field-controlers*Hit for lots of dammage. Charge-tastic builds, druids, giants, TWF+Sneak Attack, blaster mages, warlocks.*Negate abilities to affect you while slowly causing damage. Battlefield controlers, graplers, defence mages.*Have a massive HP pool and/or virtual immunity to certain attack forms, and chip away at your opponants. Certain monsters, monks, combat oriented clerics.*Make your friends stronger than the monsters. Buffer mages, healing oriented spellcasters, combat oriented clerics.*Have more monsters. Summoners, druids, undead crafters, creatures that create spawn, goblins.[/list]

I'm thinking along the lines of buffer, battle-field controller, and possible immunity to a few attack forms. 3,4 and 5?

Hellraiser are you sticking with mainly the spells from the PHB or are you branching into other sources?


the_Taken you have prompted me to look deeper into each of the archtypes. (How could I pick from the list unless I can see what they have in common, so I listed brief descriptions. In my suggestions below, I am staying away from giving PC's true spellcasting as per Hellraisers request in the first post)

Well let's look at the three Archtypes that Hellraiser mentioned.

Oracle: Seer of the future. Often cryptic in responses. From Ameican Heritage Dictionary: A person considered to be a source of wise counsel or prophetic opinions.

Sage: Very similar to the oracle but no visions of the future. Actually could be anyone with high wisdom. For the purposes of the thread let's say one who uses the world around him to aid in his advising. (Just because some divine spells deal with enviroment rather than seeing the future)

Gypsy: Looking through Dictionary.com these are nonunion truckers. (That is only one example they gave. The current definition is an independant worker that goes where work is in demand, I.E. and adventurer) So well go with the steroetypical Gypsy of the 14th century. These were fortune stealers...I mean tellers. I don't think they would get much higher than Augury, maybe commune. However they were considered cutthroats and vagabonds, so we are moving into a fighting type. (This is also why I said your class is starting to fit this. Even if you were making it from scratch it had many similarites to the bard, which I think is perfect for this type see more below)

Now we get to the one not originally listed but would be good for an adventurer.

The precognitive adventurer: An adventurer that uses their weakened ability to see the future to aid them and their friends in combat, with skills, and to make reflex saves (I don't think there is much they can do for Will and nothing they can do for Fort). I say weakened ability because he may only get glimpses of the near future that grow as they level. (Translating into +1 bonus, +2 bonus, etc.. to attack or AC)

So Hellraiser, after looking at these archtypes more closely it appears that you have four classes. Put your eyes back in their sockets it's not all that bad. The Oracle and Sage are NPC classes. The Oracle would get the future sight/scrying divination spells. The sage would get the communication, maybe some of the sight (Arcane sight) divination spells. A slighlty modified Adept would fit perfectly. Give them them the cut down spell list (you can keep the familiar if you want) and you are done with those two.

The Gypsy is easy too, but takes a little more work. Modify the bard. Take away the spell list. Give them Augury and maybe Commune as spell like abilites. Instead of bardic music, they would get Gypsotic (word because I said so  :P ) dance. Works the same way, maybe even add inspire fear (for opponents). Leave bardic knowledge and call it Gypsotic knowledge. Pepper in a few more abilities  to compensate for the lack of spell list and your done.

Now the precognitive adventurer: I would say minor buffer (boost Attack, AC, and reflex saves only), able to hit more often and add a little to damage.or able to stand longer because can't get hit. I don't see them becoming immune to different attacks just because he can get glimpses of the future.

The main abilities I see this adventurer having are:
Bonuses to attack and damage, AC, or skill bonuses. This adventurer uses their glimpses either to strike truer, avoid blows or aid them in Dex based skills (maybe some Int  based like craft). (This ability would have selectable options)

Minor buffing. The ability to tell their friends of danger (reflex save) or an opening in the opponents( attack bonus). This can either be a mental ability or plain old speach("Watch out", "he leaves his thigh exposed on every attack, etc...").

Spell like abilties: True strike, see invisible, and possibly true seeing. (there may be more.)


I don't know how he could be a battle field controller.

I'm not sticking with the PHB entirely, but like with all other classes, I'm trying to take most of what I can from it, and if I find I'm missing something, then I'll look into something else (Trying to stay core for the most part).

What I like in Divination relates to a very few spells in the PHB, which is why my original idea was to give them as Spell-like abilities along with other things. I also thought that if I wanted them to have full spellcasting, it would be better if they had something like Golem's weave magic, something that would feel like free manipulation of what's around them.

Funny that you would mention that about Gypsies, after reading the posts from this thread, I thought that archetype could be accomplished altering the bard with fluff.

This class would be a Gypsy in the sense of what you see nowadays: These old women that "tell of your future". This is why I thought of them having a Fortunetelling ability in one of the first two levels so it'd represent seers/oracles that do not have as much power as those working as counselors and such.

What I've learned from this thread is that this class requires additional fluff in order to stand as a PC class. Oracle/Seer abilities just go so far as to make them NPCs, like you and others have said. Because of this, I've come up with several ideas as to why they have the ability to see the future. I'll be posting the entire class soon.

Since you can come up with fluff, Hellraiser, we'll take care of the mechanics.

Battlefield control doesn't have to involve anything flashy. It just means making it harder for opponants to function in areas that you control. You'll either force your opponants to avoid that area, or enter into a hazzard that'll put them at a disadvantage.
For instance, you could cause every square you threaten to be considered difficult terrain. Meaning anything that enters those squares is flat-footed, eligible for a sneak attack.

Here's an idea for a class feature.

Insight (Su): The procognitive abilites of the class alow the user to adjust his movements earlier than normal. The ability isn't perfect, since there's so little time to take advantage of the foreknowledge. It also takes a bit of concentration, wich can only be directed to certain 'visions' at a time.
The class grants the character a certain number of Insight Points, wich can be alocated to certain d20 rolls. As a swift action, the user may allocate these point as an insight bonus in whatever combination among the following:

Offence: To all attack rolls and grapple checks.*Defence: To AC and Reflex saves.*To ability checks to perform special action in combat. Tripping, bullrushing, etc.*To all skill checks tied to a single ability score, with the exception of knowledge.*To all damage rolls. This isn't precision based dammage, despite being an insight bonus.

How many points should be granted? I'm thinking along the lines of 3 + INT mod. INT because you have to undersand the pattern of what ever is happening to formulate a way to manipulate it.

So.. Uh.. are we gonna see that fluff of yours?