Discussion: Empire

Poseptune · May 29, 2007, 01:22:14 PM

Quote from: Xathan, Actually Back This TimeGlad you like. The years are pretty arbitrary - any idea what would make a good timeline, or does 15 (slightly less than a generation) make sense?

The number of years waiting to become a citizen may depend on the average life expectancy of those in the Empire. If people live to be 70-90 (with magic I don't see this being a problem), 15 years may not be a bad number. Perhaps it's not even a fixed number of years. What if their was a festival or celebration during which people are granted citizenship by their lords. The festival, or such, happens every 5-6 years or when some event happens. Anyone who has been under the Empire rule for the minimum years can gain citizenship. This would mean that some people are waiting longer than others.

For example Leftbonia was conquered 3 years ago, and Rightbonia was conquered one year ago. The festival takes place this year. Neither inhabitants of Leftbonia or Rightbonia could gain citizenship this year because they haven't been under Empire rule for 5 years. So Leftbonians have to wait 8 years to become a first stage citizen, and Rightbonians would have to wait 6 years to become first stage citizens.

Also their may be to become a citizen faster. Proving their loyalty through great feat. (Adventurer and quests), as well as serving so many years in the military.

MittenNinja · May 29, 2007, 01:22:30 PM

Another few thoughts on the makeup of the empire's naval fleet:
1.) They could have a single very large (i mean the size of a small town) ship as a flagship of sorts while the rest of the ships are more uniform and mundane. Think the Super Star Destroyer from Empire Strikes Back/Return of the Jedi.
2.) The ships could be no better than the rest of the world's. What makes the empire's fleet so superior is the training it's forces receive or some form special equipment. Things like maybe a magical equivalent of a torpedo, or a sub organization like the navy seals.
3.) The empire could be home to a well renowned family of shipbuilders. Known for their extremely good quality of craftsmanship. The family has been loyal to the empire for ages and has been building their ships for years. This would be interesting as it would open up plot hooks for other nations to try and kidnap members of the family etc.

Xathan · May 29, 2007, 01:35:34 PM

Quote from: MittenNinjaAnother few thoughts on the makeup of the empire's naval fleet:
1.) They could have a single very large (i mean the size of a small town) ship as a flagship of sorts while the rest of the ships are more uniform and mundane. Think the Super Star Destroyer from Empire Strikes Back/Return of the Jedi.
2.) The ships could be no better than the rest of the world's. What makes the empire's fleet so superior is the training it's forces receive or some form special equipment. Things like maybe a magical equivalent of a torpedo, or a sub organization like the navy seals.
3.) The empire could be home to a well renowned family of shipbuilders. Known for their extremely good quality of craftsmanship. The family has been loyal to the empire for ages and has been building their ships for years. This would be interesting as it would open up plot hooks for other nations to try and kidnap members of the family etc.

I kind of like the idea of a combination of 2 and 3. Perhaps the empires elite ships are trained and raised in clans, sort of like ninjas were, and recieve special training and such to be the best captians in the world, while this clan/these clans produce technology that puts Imperial ships ahead of their rivals.

For the record, I'm ganking alot of these ideas for Pirates (mainly my own ideas, but if no-one objects, I'm going to borrow some of other peoples...I love the idea of secret naval clans)

Poseptune · May 29, 2007, 02:27:41 PM

Quote from: MittenNinjaAnother few thoughts on the makeup of the empire's naval fleet:
1.) They could have a single very large (i mean the size of a small town) ship as a flagship of sorts while the rest of the ships are more uniform and mundane. Think the Super Star Destroyer from Empire Strikes Back/Return of the Jedi.
2.) The ships could be no better than the rest of the world's. What makes the empire's fleet so superior is the training it's forces receive or some form special equipment. Things like maybe a magical equivalent of a torpedo, or a sub organization like the navy seals.
3.) The empire could be home to a well renowned family of shipbuilders. Known for their extremely good quality of craftsmanship. The family has been loyal to the empire for ages and has been building their ships for years. This would be interesting as it would open up plot hooks for other nations to try and kidnap members of the family etc.

1) Seems like a nightmare of an endeavor with the building materials at hand. A large flagship is a good idea (maybe a Galleon type), but a town size ship would an almost impossible task even with magic.

2 & 3. Those have great possiblities.

Xathan · May 29, 2007, 02:34:22 PM

Quote from: Poseidon1) Seems like a nightmare of an endeavor with the building materials at hand. A large flagship is a good idea (maybe a Galleon type), but a town size ship would an almost impossible task even with magic.

The same problem with 1 existed when the germans attempted to build a landcruiser, a tank of naval proportions. The materials and time involved were enormous, and eliminating one would have been a huge blow, the equivalent of loosing thirty to fourty panzers in a single attack.

Poseptune · May 29, 2007, 02:54:17 PM

Quote from: Xathan, Actually Back This Time
Quote from: Poseidon1) Seems like a nightmare of an endeavor with the building materials at hand. A large flagship is a good idea (maybe a Galleon type), but a town size ship would an almost impossible task even with magic.

The same problem with 1 existed when the germans attempted to build a landcruiser, a tank of naval proportions. The materials and time involved were enormous, and eliminating one would have been a huge blow, the equivalent of loosing thirty to fourty panzers in a single attack.

Then those blasted Jawas stole it when they were done. :P ooo-TINI!!

MittenNinja · May 29, 2007, 03:32:16 PM

Quote from: Poseidon1) Seems like a nightmare of an endeavor with the building materials at hand. A large flagship is a good idea (maybe a Galleon type), but a town size ship would an almost impossible task even with magic.

While it would appear that way, the building materials themselves could me magically created (minor and major creation spells), and most of the work could be done by constructs that work without sleep, food, or exhaustion. Besides, an empire that large would have some massive resources. Maybe the empire found a relic of some sorts that helped with the construction of such a vessel but because of the cost of using it, it was only used once (a cost like the willing binding of a high level character's souls to the vessel or something).

If the empire is similar to rome they would be somewhat arrogant and I could really see them trying to outdo everyone with a display of power like that.

I agree it's a bit out there, but this is a fantasy setting and things are supposed to be a little out there. I just love the image of a ship on the horizon that could be mistaken for an island.

Poseptune · May 29, 2007, 04:29:39 PM

Most Galleons were about 130 ft long. If the Emperor wanted to make a giant ship to strike fear into the hearts of their foe, a 200-250 ft long by 50-100 ft wide by 50 ft deep ship would do it. The thing would need massive masts and sails, for propulsion, just to move the weight of itself let alone the crew that would be needed.

Wensleydale · May 29, 2007, 07:10:10 PM

Hell yeah, but it'd be pretty impressive.

Could even have something along those lines as the 'palace', or at least the emperor's official sea transport.

On citizenship, Xathan's idea works. Scaling citizenship and a rome-method of assimilation seems a good way to go.

MittenNinja · May 30, 2007, 12:06:45 AM

Quote from: PoseidonMost Galleons were about 130 ft long. If the Emperor wanted to make a giant ship to strike fear into the hearts of their foe, a 200-250 ft long by 50-100 ft wide by 50 ft deep ship would do it. The thing would need massive masts and sails, for propulsion, just to move the weight of itself let alone the crew that would be needed.

True, but again you're thinking mundane means of propulsion. And I'm not saying the thing would move quickly, it would lumber like the best of em'. It would probably serve more as a mobile assault platform or base of operations rather than a combat vessel. Strong defenses, large cargo/crew capacity, maybe even an onboard dry dock of sorts to repair other ships in the field, but in no means useful for a direct assault.

Also, I'm thinking it was misleading when I said the size of a city. More like, the size of a hamlet.

amikaligula · May 30, 2007, 11:59:12 AM

i liked the idea of navy, too, but it seems to put a limit on how much control the empire has over the landlocked nations. while the coastal nations could suffer blockades and invasion, a smart landlocked nation could receive minimal trade damage (well, at least non-crippling) and resist an invasion.

My solution: airships in the navy, at least as supplements. they would be bulky, slow, and difficult to maintain, which explains their limited range and inability to cross the oceans and vast stretches of enemy territory, but they would still be a trade boon, as they are faster modes of transport and create more industry.

Túrin · May 30, 2007, 12:07:16 PM

Quote from: Xathan, Actually Back This TimeI actually don't see them being forced to give up their totems, as long as they also acknowledge imperial religion and pay homage to it. That was the Roman model, and it woked very well with the only problems being the Jeudo-Christian faiths. And, like you said, assimilation was made smoother by allowing people to retain old customs and laws as long as they didnt' conflict with roman laws, which makes the most sense to me.

I see this Empire as being a bit more oppressive than that. Especially given the way we're constructing religion (organized saint worship vs. the totems, which are radically different) I'd say the Empire would take great pains to get new citizens to convert to their religion. In fact I believe it would be a requirement.

Actually, on the whole I don't like the idea of pulling Roman tricks of liberalism with regards to different cultures, religion and citizenship. I'd much rather see the lesser degree of acceptance of the new Empire being a primary reason why it is less successful than the old Empire. This is also playing up the law vs. chaos theme more, making the new Empire more of a charicature of lawfulness. I see the old Empire as combining the good parts of law and chaos in it, while the new Empire and the tribes are just a little bit too extreme on the law and chaos sides, respectively.

On a sidenote, I'm not sure if we're using alignment in this setting, but removing it changes nothing in the argument above.

Túrin

Poseptune · May 31, 2007, 08:36:51 AM

Quote from: MittenNinjaTrue, but again you're thinking mundane means of propulsion. And I'm not saying the thing would move quickly, it would lumber like the best of em'. It would probably serve more as a mobile assault platform or base of operations rather than a combat vessel. Strong defenses, large cargo/crew capacity, maybe even an onboard dry dock of sorts to repair other ships in the field, but in no means useful for a direct assault.

Also, I'm thinking it was misleading when I said the size of a city. More like, the size of a hamlet.

Yes, I'm talking mundane means, because I don't care for magic being the solution for everything. When magic starts solving everything, you get a technology trickle. Similar to Eberron. If this is what everyone else wants then I'll go with it, but only you and I are talking about this megaship. Any idea how to get more to comment?

Quote from: amikaligulai liked the idea of navy, too, but it seems to put a limit on how much control the empire has over the landlocked nations. while the coastal nations could suffer blockades and invasion, a smart landlocked nation could receive minimal trade damage (well, at least non-crippling) and resist an invasion.

My solution: airships in the navy, at least as supplements. they would be bulky, slow, and difficult to maintain, which explains their limited range and inability to cross the oceans and vast stretches of enemy territory, but they would still be a trade boon, as they are faster modes of transport and create more industry.

If we go with what Xathan's suggestion, then the Empire would have a balance between naval and land forces (mostly commoners with elite troups backing them up). With this balance landlocked regions would be just as accessible to the Empire.

Wensleydale · May 31, 2007, 09:11:49 AM

Eh, I commented on this ship.

I could see it as the jewel of the empire - not as an actual warship, maybe, but perhaps as just a symbol of the emperor's power. Perhaps the emperor could use it to travel to conquered island provinces as a gesture of authority, or it could be the 'flagship' of the navy. It would be escorted by other ships, obviously, and would serve primarily as a base of operations, perhaps an airship mounting (if we decide to have those) and of course, a morale-breaker.

Another alternative for the size problem is of course multiple hulls - it would likely be less maneuvrable, but it would certainly float.

Poseptune · May 31, 2007, 10:35:35 AM

But how big do you think it should be?

Propulsion: :demon:

What way would an arrogant [evil] Emporer want to travel?

[ic=Emporer] Wind? Bah that would be too weak. Why should I be a slave to nature. Magic? Nah too easy, doesn't show my power and why should I be a slave to mages. 1000+ slaves rowing? Now your talking. What better way to show my power than to have the people I conquer row my flagship?[/ic]

The only other problem I see with this massive boat is that most of the regions are inland. If the Emporer is using this thing to travel, wouldn't he want a land based mobile palace?

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