The Campaign Builder's Guild

Quote from: Snargash Moonclaw

Quote from: PoseidonIf we go with these citizen stages, how will the populace of the Empire know what level you are?

Sumptuary laws in feudal and other very class-stratified societies has been a pretty common way of readily distinguishing social status. Common versions limited clothing colors and/or number of colors (royal purple being the most obvious and well known example), sometimes fabric and/or cut. These were often easy to enforce by simple financial means (which works readily in the proposed stages) as few would willingly dress below their station when the could afford better. Penalties for dressing above your station were usually severe - the more so the higher the station "impersonated." (If you've seen My Fair Lady you may recall 'Liza' Doolittle's extreme fear at the very real threat of arrest for impersonating someone of an upper class - not necessarily nobility; such laws remained in place quite late.)

What's funny in my original proposal for citizen stages I had a limited clothing colors that could be worn. LordVeeg talked me out of it...

I'm good for something.  Social strata clothing choices are more often biased on forcing a restriction on a lower class (you must wear this), not on a form of dress on an upper class.  Wealth normally does that anyways (silk and samite are not cheap...)  

Not so much what they must wear as what they may not wear - but yes, wealth tends to enforce the law. That kind of favors the concept - law enforcement in these societies was notoriously haphazard, making it impossible to break the law lessens the burden and also helps the tailors guilds make more money (lobbyists are probably an older profession than lawyers). The silliest example though was the Sassanach law applied to Irish lands within the Pale - limiting the number of colors you could where at the same time to 2 or 3 (can't recall the specific) because the Anglo-Norman bastards thought we were just too colorful (Karma's a bitch and they've all reincarnated as drag queens. . .) Under Brehon law there was a class system extending to 7 colors - only worn by "kings" and bards.

So, the Church of the Saints is, effectively, an extremely powerful independent body within the Empire. It even has its own army. Why not extend that even further, to the levels that the SS (to use a rather morbid example) had within Nazi Germany, or (alternatively) that the Petrograd Soviet had in Post-Tsar Imperial Russia? It could have its own taxes, conflicts of interest with the Emperor, even its own shops, vast swathes of property and 'university city' type places. Obviously it would be hard to administrate the Church if it was such a nation-within-a-vast-nation like this, and would probably involve magic. Still, it leaves a lot of scope for corruption. Perhaps the Emperor sought to manipulate the church (who wanted to manipulate him) into helping him govern his new state (and provide a way of manipulating his people spiritually and pleasing the church and saints at the same time). However, this has simply resulted in a conflict of interest and something bordering on an alternative source of authority. The church could even go so far as having its own holy language (the uncorrupted old Alcandrian?), laws, and administrative areas.

From what was discussed in other threads, that was one of the reasons for giving the Church its own army as well as making it equally (or slightly less) powerful as the Emperor. The only thing that keeps them from usurping power for themselves is that the Emperor is believed to be a demi-saint (some may even believe in him strong enough to grant them spells).

I think we wanted the conflict (or possibility of conflict) between the Emperor and the Blessed Speaker (head of the saintanists).

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking of. For example, the Emperor might say 'all right, I want to invade <nation>', and muster the troops and prepare, but he'd probably have to get the 'go' signal from the church first. Otherwise they'd go to 'counsel' with the saints and come out shaking their heads and saying 'sorry guys, that's a no-go with the men upstairs'. Now what do the extremely superstitious peasantry do? Follow a liege lord who's effectively just a jumped-up middle class man who might or might not be a god or listen to the venerable (if not actually genuinely very old) church of saints, who are in direct communion with the 'Gods' themselves? Could be an awkward situation.

Quote from: WensleydaleYeah, that's kind of what I was thinking of. For example, the Emperor might say 'all right, I want to invade <nation>', and muster the troops and prepare, but he'd probably have to get the 'go' signal from the church first. Otherwise they'd go to 'counsel' with the saints and come out shaking their heads and saying 'sorry guys, that's a no-go with the men upstairs'. Now what do the extremely superstitious peasantry do? Follow a liege lord who's effectively just a jumped-up middle class man who might or might not be a god or listen to the venerable (if not actually genuinely very old) church of saints, who are in direct communion with the 'Gods' themselves? Could be an awkward situation.

The Saintanists and the Emperor are riding each other's tails, which is how this 're-Empiring' got so much traction.  They need each other.  The Saint religion gives the new Emperor intstant cred, but since the SAint church has used the new Saint-Emperor, this new Living Saint (and that si what you all need to understand...the Emperor has power in both realms, as he is a Living Saint, as defined by the Church) has little cred without the Saint-part.  They need each other.  We had a 'Cardinal Richelieu' and a Rochefort-type character in mind as well, becasue my head cannot deal without plot and counter-plot.  

Warning: please be prepared to perform emergency resuscitation, I'm afraid that the following may be dangerously close to the commission of thread murder by the application of sledgehammer-class sedative. . . :blah:

[blockquote[LV]The Saintanists and the Emperor are riding each other's tails, which is how this 're-Empiring' got so much traction. They need each other.[/blockquote]

This actually mirrors medieval Europe a great deal. The church had it's own army (and the leverage often to utilize national forces for their own ends). When the Pope crowned Charlemagne as Holy Roman Emperor, CM received a huge chunk of political cred in terms of the unequivocal backing of one of the most significant European political powers which was also the only power to have significant influence in every country. Preceding military successes notwithstanding, the church made him the power that he became, additionally conferring a title of political supremacy no other secular crown could lay claim to. At the same time, the power of the church skyrocketed by (very slick) fiat in laying claim to the sole power and authority to establish the dynasty (and by implication, this power extending to any lesser dynasties as well) to which the preeminent dynasty acquiesced (not without very long, careful consideration of the implications and whether it was worth it in the overall balance) and formally acknowledged - affirming by precedent the churches' argument (and hence claim to superiority in secular power) that the one placing the crown on the king's head held authority over the king, effectively making the Holy Roman Emperor a vassal of the church in the person of the pope. In terms of the actual power the church could exert, the relationship was functionally far more balanced, and as subsequent HRE's power diminished, so did the churches,' i.e., when the HRE no longer mattered in (European) world affairs, neither did whoever crowned him, tho' the church still wielded considerable influence on other grounds until the Reformation further eroded that power. N.B, the HRE was not abolished until 1918 with the overthrow of the last one, Kaiser (lit. German for Caesar) Wilhem

 [blockquote[Wensleydale]So, the Church of the Saints is, effectively, an extremely powerful independent body within the Empire. It even has its own army. Why not extend that even further, to the levels that the SS (to use a rather morbid example) had within Nazi Germany, or (alternatively) that the Petrograd Soviet had in Post-Tsar Imperial Russia? It could have its own taxes, conflicts of interest with the Emperor, even its own shops, vast swathes of property and 'university city' type places. Obviously it would be hard to administrate the Church if it was such a nation-within-a-vast-nation like this, and would probably involve magic. Still, it leaves a lot of scope for corruption. Perhaps the Emperor sought to manipulate the church (who wanted to manipulate him) into helping him govern his new state (and provide a way of manipulating his people spiritually and pleasing the church and saints at the same time). However, this has simply resulted in a conflict of interest and something bordering on an alternative source of authority. The church could even go so far as having its own holy language (the uncorrupted old Alcandrian?), laws, and administrative areas.[/blockquote]

This is exactly like the medieval church: taxes: yup (tithes); conflict of interest: pretty much goes w/out saying. . .; shops: yup , selling relics, pardons, indulgences and a host of other goods and services out of a storefront which constituted one of the most prominent architectural landmarks in any given market zone!; swathes of property: would be a gross understatement;  university city type places: the held a monopoly for centuries on all education, especially "higher ed."; scope for corruption: all of the above only constitutes the tip of the iceberg; holy language: Latin; laws: abundant; administrative areas: likewise abundant. Inter-manipulation: see first paragraph. . .

 [blockquote[Wensleydale]Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking of. For example, the Emperor might say 'all right, I want to invade <nation>', and muster the troops and prepare, but he'd probably have to get the 'go' signal from the church first. Otherwise they'd go to 'counsel' with the saints and come out shaking their heads and saying 'sorry guys, that's a no-go with the men upstairs'. Now what do the extremely superstitious peasantry do? Follow a liege lord who's effectively just a jumped-up middle class man who might or might not be a god or listen to the venerable (if not actually genuinely very old) church of saints, who are in direct communion with the 'Gods' themselves? Could be an awkward situation.[/blockquote]

Now here is the opening wedge in making this potentially play out differently. First off, by all evidence, CM knew very well what he was doing, and was quite the reformer. In spite of the fact that both parties clearly and explicitly stated thru his coronation that the pope held his strings, CM was no puppet and the pope couldn't pull those strings effectively to any significant degree. Further, they couldn't very well retract the coronation without losing face short of excommunication and even that would call their judgment into question, so they had little actual leverage and he needed no approval to do as he chose. Even tho there's a similar tug-o-war in play here, there's a potential to alter the balance in the churches' favor. The question is, "What will give them sufficient leverage?" Unfortunately I doubt the populist factor suggested would do so, at least not on the spiritual basis. Again, looking at historical precedent, the church essentially had precisely this claim to religious authority and the word of the pope, when speaking ex cathedra was held to be the (inherently infallible) word of God. (Still true within the church, just not so universally accepted by secular political powers.) Further, the threat of excommunication was a very real and potent crow bar to place beneath the feet of opposing or incalcitrant monarchs, and even more so when applied to vassals and extremely superstitious peasants. Even so, the populace still followed the king, since he was a far more immediate authority in their lives - if forced to choose, the church might excommunicate you for siding with the kings, while he would kill you if you didn't. The church, while often having it's own army, still relied on the monarchs to provide (and pay) the troops, and those troops only constituted a local extension of church authority within their specific AO's (where they were already busy "fighting a jihad, oops, crusade against heretics). Even if the king were excommunicated, in which case the church explicitly ordered all his vassals to deny his authority, absolutely demanding civil disobedience or face excommunication along with him, the churches' mandate was still ignored.

The key differences here then are: 1) the church could have it's own troops directly in it's employ and garrisoned throughout the Empire, thereby constituting an immediate threat to life and limb equal to that of the Emperor. (An historical precedent to examine in terms of how this could play out is the afore mentioned Cardinal Richelieu with the Cardinal's guards and King Louis. Still not as extensive or powerful, but nevertheless more potent within the narrow realm than others before or since.) For this the church must have the explicit secular authority to levy troops, or at least permission to hire and recruit (meaning broad access to Stage 0 citizens who would otherwise be held as chattels of secular authorities for purposes of labor), along with the material and financial resources to house, equip, pay and otherwise maintain them. Ceding much more numerous, extensive and inherently productive (i.e., wealthier) fiefs explicitly to them than the medieval church held could accomplish all of these. They would have their own serfs to levy just like the Emperor, along with places to billet them and the means of production to feed and equip them (giving them territories w/a couple of mines would further enhance this) and generate revenue to purchase what can't be produced. This, and pretty much any other mundane devices, will require carefully outlining the basic (explicit) terms of any formal charter(s)/agreements made between the church and the Emperor to provide the necessary political mechanics. Any informal agreements affecting how things actually work can then add further depth, tension and variables to manipulate in actively playing out the conflict in a dynamic setting. 2.) At the risk of pointing out the obvious: Magic. As pretty much everyone developing material in the Guild appears to have a handle on, when this and its many implications are considered carefully and followed to their various conclusions, it can have some pervasive and far reaching effects on any facet of the setting in which it appears. While further discussion of this belongs in the "Magic in the Empire" thread(s), I will point out here that we will soon need to address rather specifically how the various forms of magic (and who wields them) affects the socio-political balance of church and state in the Empire. There's a whole new element in the espionage/intelligence game beyond the arcane players we've been talking about to throw into the mix. I think it's safe to say that it's a foregone conclusion that the Saintanists will be very deeply embroiled in that arena. (Again, see Richelieu. . .)

Quote from: Snargash MoonclawWarning: please be prepared to perform emergency resuscitation, I'm afraid that the following may be dangerously close to the commission of thread murder by the application of sledgehammer-class sedative. . . :blah:

As I said before you didn't kill the thread, I've been waiting for the News post that Ishmayl just posted before posting. I have a response, but it is written up at home and I have to find it now.

If anyone else feels like commenting on Snargash's massive post of doom feel free. :D

Right, Snargash. I read through your post and I think I can summarise it as:

This church can be taken as being rich and powerful. However, looking at the medieval church, there were only a few select strings they could pull on de facto despite them being the voices of god. The populist factor of their 'the gods say no!' line would have limited effects 'cuz the king WILL kill you if you don't obey him, whilst the gods MIGHT.

Therefore, we need a different lever for the church to have power over the Emperor. The obvious answer is that the church has its own military.

I agree, if this is what you're trying to say. Also, touching on the 'magic' point, magic could be an extremely important factor in administrating the Empire - if the church had under its control the largest body of wizards in the empire, trained in communication over long distances, foretelling, and more mundane arts such as translation and tutoring, then these too could be an important lever - the church, if it so decides, could cripple the Empire's rapid administration - which at the moment, could be one of the most important strings holding it together - with just a short communication. These magicians could be sworn to the church by something similar to a Mark of Justice, supposedly so that magic can be kept under the control of the Emperor, but in reality, so the church has power over them.

One of the main strings that ties the church and the Emperor together is the emerging deifications of all things 'Old Empire/and Empire in general'.

The Saintanists accellerated their growth by pushing the politcal maturation of the man who was trying to bring the new Empire back togther, the New Emperor.  If one goes, they both could go. Belief in the Emperor depends on belief in his value as the old empire come again, and the adoration of the saints and things old empire is tied to belief in the worth of 'Empire' in General.

Now understand that the New Empire is very heavily into the slave trade, and the Emperor is using these slaves to create very quick urbarn renewal and other major building projects.  These slaves are needed in large amounts, so the Empire is constantly warring to gain new slaves amd level '0' citizens.

Now, I chose the 'Cardinal Richelieu' and a Rochefort-type character idea for a few reasons.
One was just to have a face at the top of this secret police/sainted blades.  Another was that he could also run an intelligence gathering cabal, while keeping the priests noses clean.  ANd they think and act like they are a law unto themselves.

I think it is very important NOT to have the Saint Priests have the huge mage network.  Maybe a few pets here and there, but between priest spells and the politcal power, they are quite enough of a power base without that.
I think we had bardic universities as one source of magic teaching, and then our creepy old men in towers as the other.

 

I need to review the saints once more but one good possibility just occurred to me - having the church militant function as police. Ceding them the land and resources would have been a reluctant assent - that's precisely what any king/emperor specifically seeks to prevent (including among the landed nobles - no one can be permitted to get too strong). Clearly he had too as part of the bargain in the establishment of both entities as the New Empire. Rather than have two distinct and obvious armies, the Emperor would control the actual Imperial military as a slave gathering, um, "expeditionary force," while the church would have a paramilitary force for internal matters. Depending on the nature of the legal code/system and how closely tied it is to church dogma, it might actually make a great deal of sense for the church to be responsible for law enforcement, with the value added PR bonus of sustaining the facade of cooperation with the church forces actively assisting/supporting the Emperor publicly while hiding (or at least misdirecting) the fact that they are actually opposing "checks and balance" forces. It follows that, while the gods might not kill you, the Inquisition will. This further builds in the intelligence assets, oops I mean "investigative branch" without even having to hide it, just concealing the scope of their activities. Further (arcane) magical assets could also be public - pet mages being predominantly diviners. Even if it were more of a paramilitary force, with the bulk of the Imperial Army fielded elsewhere, the church would wind up with by far the larger and more powerful military within Imperial borders.

Quote from: Snargash MoonclawI need to review the saints once more but one good possibility just occurred to me - having the church militant function as police. Ceding them the land and resources would have been a reluctant assent - that's precisely what any king/emperor specifically seeks to prevent (including among the landed nobles - no one can be permitted to get too strong). Clearly he had too as part of the bargain in the establishment of both entities as the New Empire. Rather than have two distinct and obvious armies, the Emperor would control the actual Imperial military as a slave gathering, um, "expeditionary force," while the church would have a paramilitary force for internal matters. Depending on the nature of the legal code/system and how closely tied it is to church dogma, it might actually make a great deal of sense for the church to be responsible for law enforcement, with the value added PR bonus of sustaining the facade of cooperation with the church forces actively assisting/supporting the Emperor publicly while hiding (or at least misdirecting) the fact that they are actually opposing "checks and balance" forces. It follows that, while the gods might not kill you, the Inquisition will. This further builds in the intelligence assets, oops I mean "investigative branch" without even having to hide it, just concealing the scope of their activities. Further (arcane) magical assets could also be public - pet mages being predominantly diviners. Even if it were more of a paramilitary force, with the bulk of the Imperial Army fielded elsewhere, the church would wind up with by far the larger and more powerful military within Imperial borders.

This, I think, makes a lot of sense. Depending on the administrative structure of the church, this could also mean that 'bishops' are extremely powerful, and this will result in power-games.

Quote from: Wensleydale

Quote from: Snargash MoonclawI need to review the saints once more but one good possibility just occurred to me - having the church militant function as police. Ceding them the land and resources would have been a reluctant assent - that's precisely what any king/emperor specifically seeks to prevent (including among the landed nobles - no one can be permitted to get too strong). Clearly he had too as part of the bargain in the establishment of both entities as the New Empire. Rather than have two distinct and obvious armies, the Emperor would control the actual Imperial military as a slave gathering, um, "expeditionary force," while the church would have a paramilitary force for internal matters. Depending on the nature of the legal code/system and how closely tied it is to church dogma, it might actually make a great deal of sense for the church to be responsible for law enforcement, with the value added PR bonus of sustaining the facade of cooperation with the church forces actively assisting/supporting the Emperor publicly while hiding (or at least misdirecting) the fact that they are actually opposing "checks and balance" forces. It follows that, while the gods might not kill you, the Inquisition will. This further builds in the intelligence assets, oops I mean "investigative branch" without even having to hide it, just concealing the scope of their activities. Further (arcane) magical assets could also be public - pet mages being predominantly diviners. Even if it were more of a paramilitary force, with the bulk of the Imperial Army fielded elsewhere, the church would wind up with by far the larger and more powerful military within Imperial borders.

This, I think, makes a lot of sense. Depending on the administrative structure of the church, this could also mean that 'bishops' are extremely powerful, and this will result in power-games.

Perfect.  Both of these.
Now, I think we need to have a VERY powerful mage advisor to our Emperor.  ANother check and balance, so that he has his own little cabal of intelligence gatherers, mainly renegade bards from the Bardic Schools.  maybe i tough guy mage and some 15 renegades.

hmm - I think we need to clarify an outline of the basic "power-blocks" at this point. The various factions present all appear to have consolidated the majority of practitioners in a particular branch of magic within their ranks which influences to some degree what areas of activity they focus their efforts in as most suited to their methodologies. I was about to start a separate thread to look at the actual Church structure - basic TOE and functions of it's various orders and divisions - who would actually command the police, etc., but realized that a few things about what they do need to be pinned down first before working out how they go about doing it.

Okay - we start with the bipartisan government we've been discussing here: Church and State. What would appear to the public as a division of (governmental) labor also masks a balance of opposing powers - starting with Police and Military. Responsibility for other departments of "public works" would likewise mask control of power and resources. Labor seems the most obvious of these - even though both branches require it, someone would actually control the labor pool itself in terms of assigning assets/resources to projects. However, if there is an explicit distinction between slaves and Level 0 citizens this can be divided readily: for instance with the State controlling the slaves it acquires through its military while the Church "accepts the responsibility of indoctrinating, oops, acculturating new citizens and ensuring their gainful employment and welfare." Whatever the Empire passes off as public health care would default to the Church - a major PR coup for them if handled properly. While roads, construction, etc. would seem to fall to the State, St. Feraver Hearthson is the patron of these - the Church would try mightily to exert influence here - probably letting the State deal with work while trying to reap the benefits of acclaim: this is a large sector to consider carefully. Natural resources will be a major bone of contention which the State would seek to control as much as possible - probably behind the scenes by playing a passive-aggressive gambit of forcing the Church to rely solely on the resources of the lands ceded to them and otherwise hoarding all food production, mineral wealth, timber harvest, etc. Timber esp. if the Church has no reason to have Naval assets. (Score one for the Emperor - it's starting to look like he needs it. . .) A two column listing of which branch "is responsible for" (in control of) which major governmental functions/activities/projects should quickly show us how power is balanced. Some areas would in reality demonstrate a degree of redundancy as one branch tries to shoe-horn its way into the other's territory by excuse of fine (if dubious) distinctions - construction of Church buildings on Church lands near disputed borders resulting in superior fortifications in which the populace would seek refuge while surrounding State controlled lands, etc. are briefly over-run and torched - after all you can't expect the police to do the army's job of repelling invaders can you? The Orders of St. Lord Garret and St. Vest 'Masttopper' Kedrikson would likewise jockey for influence in the activities of the Imperial Army and Navy. Machiavellian cost/benefit analysis is a prime skill in both branches of government and a lot of subtle sabotage would be SOP.

The Noble Houses would constitute a 3rd power-block with various divided loyalties - some houses having clear (perhaps hereditary) ties with one or the other branches as pathways to power/influence, but all concerned with preventing a loss of power of the Houses as a whole - the Bardic Colleges constituting their principle independent arm with fingers in every pie they can find the means of inserting themselves into. If the above paragraph implies a bewildering interplay, the political juggling act these guys would have to perform would border on epic. It would not be surprising for a fleet admiral to be (in secret actuality) a high level bard with family ties to both the Church and the State and principal loyalties to hir own family and/or College. The magic discussion has been confusing at times as to whether or not Bardic Magic and Sorcery are synonymous - I would recommend keeping them distinct with Sorcery (as a separate class/skill set) being the principle magical asset of the State - particularly in light of it's military applications. Bardic magics are very similar if less lethal and more focused on mental influence, but also include some spells that are normally associated with Divine magic- e.g. Heal spells - nicely fitting in between and among both, as well as replacing them when needed - such as highly skilled House healers alleviating the Noble Houses of dependency on the Church for this. It's also been implied that some of the Colleges may have one or more "aces in the hole" in dealing with St. Devinious - or perhaps a separate, secret alliance in play.

Finally, a fourth power-block is being considered of a populist "organized crime" element along the lines of Robin Hood and the (original) traditional ninpo ryu of the Japanese mountains actually functioning to aid the common citizens in the face of oppressive activities of the preceding three. Monks and psionicists fit well here, particularly since the Church does not seem like it would have a strong monastic element. Further, speaking solely in terms of specific "magical" abilities, telepaths would constitute the premier intelligence operatives - which, more importantly, would provide the greatest counter-intelligence measures; an absolute necessity for survival. Monk class skills further enhance these activities - a network of monks, rogues and psionicists could accomplish quite a lot in secrecy and infiltrate a great deal of the lower strata of governmental ministries and Noble Households - in some cases constituting almost the entirety of the domestic staff. . .