The Campaign Builder's Guild

Eschaton: The Underworld
[ooc]I've been delaying writing one of the most important aspects of my setting: the underworld And now I'm ready to throw out ideas and ask for input.[/ooc]

[ic=The Underworld]From the moment the light rose over the mountains I knew nothing I ever saw would be the same. When I could at last see the sky I realized that the island, for I had climbed through darkness to reach an island, was not in the sea, but in the sky. Clouds drifted by so close I could almost have reached out and touched them, did I not fear the edge. Trees bloomed in a hundred shades of green, and flowers in every color imaginable. But all of this paled before the myriad denizens. Where those below had been horrific, those above were ethereal. Some flitted across the sky on ethereal wings, some frolicked in the streams without fear of being swept over the side, and others peered at me from hiding places behind the foliage. The spirits of nature viewed me with as much curiosity as I saw them, though less fear.
[/ic]

The Underworld is a level of reality below the physical plane--that is, Earth. On Earth, some call the underworld the Otherworld. In the underworld, Earth is the Otherworld. The underworld is a single world divided into seven realms. In these realms dwell the fae, giants, and ghosts.

[ooc]Everything from Eschaton is drawn from history or mythology. The underworld is my place for all the magical beings and so forth to exist. Most people never see it, though many tell stories about it.

Now I've decided this is one continuous world with different regions. I know I want seven realms, to stay in line with the basic cosmology I've been using (seven heavens above Earth, seven underworlds below). Each region will have different inhabitants and factions.[/ooc]

The Realms
 [note]This list is tentative. Names are working names.[/note]
The Seelie Realm - Alfheim/Paristan (Seelie fae)
The Water Realm - Patala (dragons)
The Fire Realm - Muspelheim (fire giants)
The Cold Realm - Niflheim (nothing? - but it is the realm of mist, so maybe Mummu fits)
The Dead Realm - Sheol/Hades (ghosts)
The Unseelie Realm - Naraka/Purgatory/Tartarus (Unseelie)
The Giant Realm - Jotunheim (frost giants, other giants)

[ic=Features]So thinking from world mythology, I need to think about what features these realms should have, and how they all fit together.

I've been thinking the Seelie Realm is an archipelago. And I'm thinking they are floating islands to add to the surrealness of the world. I want to really distance this world from Earth, without making it feel alien. A realm to inspire awe, but not perplex. Floating isles have been done before, but I think they fit well with a faerie world. I think either each island will be a kingdom, or there will be a few kingdoms/empires that rule several isles each.

In the wiki, I referred to this in passing as the Skysea. I envision ships that sail it, though how I haven't gotten into yet.

Somehow the heart of the world should be Mount Mashu/Meru. Which is probably surrounded by the Cedar Forest.

A ring of mountains forming the extreme boundary of the universe (Hindu myth) seems like something I may want.

I need to figure out where the other realms sit.

If the islands float in the sky, the natural answer is that the water realm is the sea beneath them.

Tartarus is first and foremost a prison (among other things, to holds enemies of the Primordials, such as the titans). So perhaps it is just an area of the Unseelie Realm (or maybe the Unseelie fled to Naraka after the schism with the Seelie). Should feature twisted towers, chains, blood--very hellish.

Other things to think about:
The Dragon Gate - dragons have to swim up through it to learn to fly (from Patala to Seelie Realm)
Siren Scoputi - island of sirens (probably in Patala)
The various netherworld rivers: Styx, Lethe, Mnemosyne, Phlegethon - plus all those Norse rivers
The Asphodel Meadows - Greek, place of ordinary dead souls
Irkalla - the realm of Ereshkigal (Nirrti), which is perhaps another name for ghost world, or perhaps a section of it
Yama Loga - palace of Yama in ghost realm
Erebus - Greek myth; place of darkness, possibly in Tartarus; also a name for the god (so maybe an alias of Kroni?)
Kyoopelinvouri - cavern of the dead
Svartaflheim - sunless realm of the gnomes (who turn to stone in sunlight)
Iron Wood - in Jotunheim
Nastrond - home of Nidhogg
City of Brass - ancient lost city where djinn is trapped (1001 Arabian Nights)
Onigashima - oni island
Ice caverns - just seems to fit
trees that sing - just seems to fit

Yggdrasil - its on Earth, but perhaps it somehow connects
[/ic]

[ooc]Important note about souls. Normally, a soul that dies returns to the Paramatma and is subsequently reincarnated. Only damned or disturbed souls linger in the underworld as ghosts. However, I think most times when the fae die they are reborn as humans, and vice versa. I'm note sure whether the fae do something malicious to gain more births, or if its just part of the Wheel of Rebirth.[/ooc]

So this is partly me getting my ideas down. I won't try to draw a map until I have a better idea how this will all work in practice.

In summation: help  :yumm:

Are there things I've missed? Ideas on how it all fits together? General thoughts?

The first thing that sticks out to me is that Erebus and Svartaflheim could be one and the same? Both are sunless/dark, and I know you like to mix and match mythology.

The "sea" in the archipelago that is the Seelie Realm as the Dragon realm like you said seems like a good fit. All those underworld rivers could flow into it from the "mainland".

Personally the Fire realm just screams volcano to me, but maybe that idea is a bit cliched.

Kyoopelinvouri reminds me of the place of the dead from The Amber Spyglass (great book if you've never read it), possiblt its just up the "rivers" in the mainland and is the "entry-way" to deeper and darker places like Erebus/Svartaflheim?

Regarding airships: one idea I've used for my own campaign with airships is to either have the ships carved out of larger floating rocks, or have floating rocks embedded along the hull of the ship.

Ideas for dragon gate: could be an archipilogie(sp?) of floating isles which for one reason or another have dropped attitude to sea level. this assuming the dragon gate is on the surface of the sea.

Yggdrrasill: the roots of yggdrasill could possible go down to one of the other realms, or be a small isolated place or perhaps the part of the the yggdrasill that's shown on earth is only the top, and the trunks off yggdrasill goes through the earth and down to the underworld
a possible way of travelling between the two worlds could then be through the trunk, filled with its own ecology and society. must likely with the 3 mytholic beast being an important part of that, can't remember thier name at the top of my head though (the dragon that's gnawing at the root, the eagle that lives at the top and the squirrel which constantly run back and forth between the two)

 

Hey Llum, I like that idea for Erebus, thanks!

But I'm not sure what the mainland will be yet--if the Seelie live in floating isles that orbit the mountain, and the sea is beneath them. I have to figure out how the other realms physically fit together.

Never read the Amber Spyglass. I believe Kyoopelinvouri was from Finnish myth.

@Tillumni
Great idea with the airships.

I was thinking the dragon gate was a waterfall they had to "swim" up (i.e. learn to fly).

Ratatosk, Nidhogg, Vedfolnir.

Thanks a bunch guys!

So I've been doing so more thinking. I've got more of an idea of how the geography will fit together.


At the "center" of the world is the great mountain (we'll call it Mashu). Around this mountain is the great forest (Cedar Forest). Around this is the ocean (Realm 1: Dragons). Around the ocean are the loka loka mountains, which form the border of the giant realm (Realm 2: Giants). Not sure what would end that.

Orbiting the mountain are about a half dozen floating islands (Realm 3: Seelie)

Beneath the mountain, like an cone going down are massive underground complexes where the Unseelie live (Realm 4: Unseelie/Hell realm).

In the south, probably on the sea not floating, is Muspelheim, the fire continent (Realm 5: Fire giants or other fire beings).

In the north, or in the upper levels of the underground (uncertain) is Niflheim (Realm 6). Traditionally it is a realm of cold and mist. However, sometimes Hel (realm of the dead) is said to be within it, so I may take that tact. However, that would mean I need one more realm.

If I go that route, Meru/Cedar Forest could be Realm 7.

*One concern is that the Seelie need a way to be fighting with the Unseelie. But if they live on floating islands, and the Unseelie are underground beneath Mashu (and Niflheim), then it gets harder.

As to the Seelie Realm:

I'm thinking Tir Nan Og (wikipedia) might be a name for either the entire underworld or the Skysea (Seelie Realm) part of it.

So the major kingdoms would probably be:

Annwn (I'm thinking Avalon could be the same)
Mag Mell - these two would be basically European-themed kingdoms
Yaochi - The kingdom of the Jade Emperor (Chinese)

Persitan?? - The Persian fairy land is developed, but without distinct personalities I wonder if it is better suited to assume it refers to the entire world, or one of the other kingdoms.
Hsuan?? - Chinese fairy continent. Do I need another place for what should be a unified "pantheon"?

Am I missing anything? Thoughts?

A random thought I had just now looking at my diagram:

Maybe Niflheim could be the top of the mountain, if I assume the mountain is truly ginormous (I can't believe my spellchecker accepts that word).

So I've been continuing to think on the layout.

I'm thinking of semi-vertical structure.

[spoiler=sketch][/spoiler]

So then I could say the realms are:
1 - Mount Mashu (becomes mountain of the dead)
-Niflheim is the outer area
-Svartalheim lies in caverns inside Niflheim
-Sheol is the inner mountain at its base
2 - Naraka/Tartarus is beneath Sheol, below ground level
3 - Muspelheim (not pictured) forms the boundary around Naraka
4 - Cedar Forest surrounds Mount Mashu
5 - Patala (the ocean) surrounds Cedar Forest
6 - Jotunheim (the giant land) is beyond the Lokaloka mountains which bound Patala
7 - The Skysea (Seelie) realm are islands orbiting Mount Mashu

The downside to this layout is that Niflheim, Svartalfheim, and the shadowy realm of the dead are all considered one realm (Mount Meru). But it seems unfitting to not make Cedar Forest a realm, since it's kind of big.

Thoughts?

Bump ;)

I realized I didn't really explain "The Pit." It's Abaddon, the worst part of Tartarus/Naraka. I'm thinking something really nasty lives at the bottom. The hollow drops all the way down from Sheol, where I'm thinking the rivers (Phlegethon, Styx, etc.) flow down into it, down past the bottom of Tartarus.

Maybe the palace of Nirrti is at the bottom.

Ok, this looks good so far. For the Cedar Forest is there some kind of Emerald Dream/Feywild thing from mythology it could be?

Does Jotunheim go on forever? Also, Mulspelheim is like a ring of fire around the mountain?

Now the City of Brass could maybe be between the Mispelheim and the Pit. I know in mythology there are tons of robots and automata around it. Maybe they could be creations of the gnomes/giants, orichalcum statues imbued with spirits? Or clockwork ala ancient islam custom?

As for Nastrond (home of the Nidhogg, a dragon that chews on the roots of Yggdrasil iirc) could it be at the very peak of the mountain? maybe with some of the roots of Yggdrasil comming down from the sky? (cause its an Underworld?)

Quote from: LlumDoes Jotunheim go on forever? Also, Mulspelheim is like a ring of fire around the mountain?

As for Nastrond (home of the Nidhogg, a dragon that chews on the roots of Yggdrasil iirc) could it be at the very peak of the mountain? maybe with some of the roots of Yggdrasil comming down from the sky? (cause its an Underworld?)
[/quote]http://www.thecbg.org/e107_files/public/hourglass.gif[/img]

Maybe to help counteract the "downside" that Niflheim/Svartalfheim and the dead realm are all the same place, you could make Svartalfheim and the realm of the dead just sections, which actually reside on the inside ceiling of the mountain (kind of a hollow earth thing). You could have them face each other, each one looking "up at the other" and have some sort of weird ways to get in. It could serve as an interesting side feature to a larger realm. They don't necessarily have to face each other, though... you could just have a big bridge between them or something. It would definitely be cool to have Svartalfheim be an isolated (even if seemingly endless) closed-off realm that is hidden in the mist of Niflheim.

Quote from: BiohazardMaybe to help counteract the "downside" that Niflheim/Svartalfheim and the dead realm are all the same place, you could make Svartalfheim and the realm of the dead just sections, which actually reside on the inside ceiling of the mountain (kind of a hollow earth thing). You could have them face each other, each one looking "up at the other" and have some sort of weird ways to get in. It could serve as an interesting side feature to a larger realm. They don't necessarily have to face each other, though... you could just have a big bridge between them or something. It would definitely be cool to have Svartalfheim be an isolated (even if seemingly endless) closed-off realm that is hidden in the mist of Niflheim.

I briefly considered a Hollow Earth model for the entire underworld. I dismissed the idea because the underworld isn't literally underground--the Earth has its normal plates and core.

I hadn't considered the model just within the mountain. So if Svartalfheim is on the ceiling, gravity is reversed there?

Svartalheim is where the gnomes (dwarfs) should live (breaking the rule that the Seelie live in the Skysea), so I kind of do want it separated from the dead. Though in Norse myth there is a connection b/w dwarfs and the dead, so maybe having them in the same realm works.

I'm working my mind around this idea.

Not much to contribute at the moment - but here's some appropriate inspirational theme music

While I plan to incorporate Orpheus as a thematic element, can't say I love the music SM  x.

So the Skysea is a series of islands held in the sky by the roots of the world tree (which descend from the sky), around mount Mashu. I'm going with several islands rather than just a few because many mythologies describe the islands of the faeries/dead as a series of isles.

But I'm thinking there should probably only be a few Seelie kingdoms. There's almost got to be one ruled by characters from Celtic myth. Especially with the Tuatha de Dananns, and the Welsh named underworld figures, it seems like a basic structure is already detailed.

And the same is true for a Chinese-themed one, namely a rigid court ruled by the Jade Emperor.

I think I should have two Celtic-Otherworld nations (Mag Mell and Annwn), to account for the rulers presented in each. Plus I feel like having only two kingdoms almost necessarily places them in opposition. I want there to be politics between the Seelie, but only war with the Unseelie.

Thing is, most of the other fairylands in mythology are pretty vague, with few if any specific figures. This means they can be easily folded into one of the other kingdoms.

My question:

Are those three kingdoms enough? Should I have another themed one? Usually I take the tact that folding stuff into as few entities as possible is best, making it more universal (and at the same time deeper), and you can see this effect in the bestiary.

(I could probably use Dilmun, or pull something from Hindu mythology, or maybe Oceanic.)

if the current 3 kingdoms are fairly large, then there's really nothing that keeps the other fairylands from being regions within one of the 3 kingdoms, which might have a local culture slightly different from other regions. Especially since the skysea consist of alot of isle, which allows some amounth of isolated develiopement, even within the same realm, with the specific culture depending on the weather and geografy of the isle, or group of isle that it springs form.