The Campaign Builder's Guild

So Lord Vreeg's Celtrica meta-thread got me in a guilt-spiral about not having a workable, dedicated system attached to the Cadaverous Earth.  Of course the fluff stands on its own; of course anyone who really wanted to run a CE game probably could do so with whatever system they chose, with a lot of improvisation and a bit of work.  But as Vreeg noted, a campaign setting isn't really a campaign setting until it's playable.  That some people have nominated CE for Awesomest Setting Guildy also got me thinking: if CE, which has no crunch to speak of, is considered that well, then doesn't it deserve a system to go along with it?  If someone didn't like the system, the fluff would still be valid, after all.

I'm crappy with crunch stuff; it doesn't hold my interest as fluff does.  I've tentatively broached the topic of a CE system before and had a few responses, but I've decided to make a dedicated thread.  For those of you familiar with CE: what system do you think would work best for it, and how would you go about modifying or tweaking that system to fit CE?  For example, with DnD 3.5, divine magic would have to be cut, magic in general overhauled, alignment removed, core races redesigned, some new classes written up, etc.

For those not familiar with CE, the link is in my signature; here's also a much shorter, quick n' dirty overview.  CE is basically a dark, dystopian world, full of bizarre creatures and diabolic magic, where cvilization and reality itself aren't just falling apart but full-on rotting.  I call it the Cadaverous Earth in reference to the Dying Earth sub-genre - it's a dying earth that's now beginning to smell, and while life persists, it's now modeled after parasites and detritovores, worms and leeches and vultures, and swarms of flesh-eating undead.  A system for CE would need to include plenty of ways of differentiating races, and it would need to accomodate both urban-intrigue style games (7 huge cities remain) and wilderness-survival style games.  The system of magic needs to cover things like demon-summoning, grafting, necromancy, and gory evocation-style spells; I've assumed a basically Vancian system of magic, with some tweaks, but magic is something I'm relatively flexible on.

Right now, I'm torn between doing a DnD/Pathfinder conversion or using FATE or FUDGE to build a system up from scratch.  Cataclysmic Crow has also suggested Unhallowed Metropolis.  The advantage of DnD/Pathfinder include plenty of mechanics for things like grafting and some nice racial mechanics; the advantages of FUDGE/FATE include greater freedom and a potentially deadlier game (I like the idea of fairly fragile characters).

So, to reiterate again: what system is best suited to CE's particular brand of "visceral baroque"?  How could I adapt that system to fit CE?  What systems shouldn't I consider?  Why?

Thanks in advance for all replies.

I would definitely go with either a) a very generic system or b) designing your own system. Both avenues have their advantages and disadvantages, option b's mainly being that you can tailor it just the way you want, but a lot of people are doing their own nowadays (not necessarily a bad thing).

If you go this second route, I suggest looking around at some "fast play" rules you can find for systems and writing something up like that. Work out the basic stuff to make it playable, and either design a simple mechanic that makes improv easy, or add to it on a case-by-case basis. It's really not all that hard to design the core of a system, and once it is down, yourself and others won't have a hard time adding new rules and effects. Later on you might choose to expand or alter the core rules as you see fit, but I think it might be better to start small than to undertake a big project, especially where you've already got a very encompassing setting and don't want to make us wait for specific accompanying rules sets for the different bits. :D

EDIT: If you want to use a published system, I'll go ahead and recommend the nWoD Storytelling System. While the fluff bits may be mostly useless, the system itself is effective and has some built-in mechanics you want to use or modify (i.e. the Morality scale), and lends itself fairly well to custom additions for magic or supernatural effects. The races thing might be a problem, but depending on what extent you want to represent each one in the mechanics, automatic starting points in certain traits or skills, or increased point costs to buy into certain areas might suffice.

Thanks for the quick reply!

FUDGE/FATE feels like a kind of "quick-play" system in a sense, which is why I'm drawn to it: a skeleton of a system that can be fleshed out with my own details.  For those with experience with those systems (SA? LC?) - are they quite easy to turn into fully-fledged systems?  Are they well-suited to CE, or should I seek elsewhere?  I've never actually played using FUDGE/FATE, only skimmed the free rule-sets.

Unfortunately I'm not familiar with them, but I just edited my post with a recommendation for the nWoD system. Don't know if you have experience with it, but it's a pretty mutable set of rules.

New World of Darkness, right?  If so, I don't have much experience with it, but thanks for the reccomendation.  Does it fall under the open gaming license or whatnot?

I don't believe it does; White Wolf kind of does their own thing. Where it's a different publisher and system it shouldn't really be an issue as long as you don't try to sell it. You can find homemade WoD stats and the like all over the place.

hI.

It's the Guiltmaster, come calling again.  Glad to know that I have once again hit below the belt, and a number of members are doubled over.  (What, am I supposed act like I didn't think of the consequences of what I was saying?)

However, I'd better stand up now and be counted.

I'm at work for a little while, but I'll try to get back on tonight.  I have a list of questions I'd like to ask before I really sign on to any mechanic.  But my first question is going to be something like, "So how would a class-based system hold up in CE?"  and "What system will deal best with Nectar"?

I'll volunteer my system for it, and even write it around your setting, if you're interested. Links in my sig.

For some reason I don't see CE working out that well in more light/free-form games. There are so many interesting elements that people should have some kind of tangible link to it. Descriptions are all well and good, but when you actually see how different things are within the framework of a ruleset you start to really comprehend the differences.  And your game lives and dies by details and differences.
I don't think class-based is the way to go either since most of the things you mention would pretty much require a class all to themselves. And i also agree that the characters should be fragile. It is not the accomplishments during life that matter, but rather the way they perish. :)
Hmm, a long time since i looked at it, but you might actually want to take a look at the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying... Perhaps.

I've already run adventures in Cadaverous Earth using both Fudge/FATE and The Riddle of Steel.  Despite what a lot of folks might think, the systems I used had a hell of a lot of effect on the way the stories played out.  FATE led to a quicker, more free-flowing narrative (we usually had a single roll determine combat) and relied a lot more on the players for creative description.  TRoS was intimate and gory, but had a lot more dicerolling and book consultation (no more than D&D, really, but much more than FATE).

These two and Sorcerer are the only full-fledged systems I use these days (okay, there's Dogs in the Vineyard and Kill Puppies for Satan as well, but they're setting specific), so I can't really playtest any others for you.  They both worked a treat in their own ways: I'd recommend rules-lite systems for a gaming group that is already well-versed in the setting material, and therefore knows the sort of thematic energy and tone they'll be contributing to.

EDIT: in my experience the benefit of a rules heavy system is that with players caught up in combat minutiae you spend less time coming up with plots, descriptions, or witty things for your NPC's to say.  With a system like Fudge on the other hand the conflict resolution takes seconds, so you end up zipping from scene to scene with incredibly little downtime.  Again, they're both good for me: only TRoS can truly convey the pure terror of a six-shootin' lilix (as in six guns) bearing down on you while you struggle drunkenly with your own pistol; or of an armed cestoid, plain and simple.

I don't know much about Warhammer Roleplay, but I do seem to recall there are professions (ratcatcher somehow sticks in my mind), and that randomization was heavily encouraged.  Could be totally different, however.

I think a class system would be difficult but not impossible.  Certain features would never be dependent on class; grafts, for example, wouldn't be class features, even if I designed a graftpunk class that got bonuses with grafts or something.  I imagine low-level spellcasting as being fairly common, as well, so that could be represented by everyone taking a level of some sort of spellcasting class.  The question would be where to draw the line for classes.  Would magister be a class, or would magisters simply be represented by the aristocrat class, or a charisma-oriented class, for example?  Would corsair be a class, or would it be a multi-class version of fighter/rogue?  Etc.

Okay, just noticed SA's post!

First of all, I'm tremendously flattered that CE has actually been playtested!  I would LOVE to hear more about how that turned out!!

More specifically, with reference to FUDGE/FATE, did you assign various Aspects or simply allow players to invent their own?

I'll look into Riddle of Steel.

Thanks everyone for the brainstorm so far - enormously helpful.

Instead of using classes with 20 levels, a "module" system might work. Where each module is a mini-class, yielding a few specific features (akin to the callings of UnMet). If you use a point buy system as the basic system, each module would be like a complex feat or perk.
Although SAs opinion might be a bit more wellfounded, i can't say that tRoS would be a good fit as such. It is a bit too... serious. And while CE deals with many advanced subjects it is not exactly made for hyperrealistic gaming.

WFRP does have professions, but they're not quite like D&D classes. For one thing you complete them and then you choose another. Just about everything is profession-based. How random stuff is kind of depends on the GM.

Another vote for TRoS, as always.

I might take more work - and thus time - on my part to accomplish, but I wonder if it might make sense for me to pick not one but a couple of systems, some requiring more tweaks than others, as potential systems to run CE in.  Riddle of Steel or something like it for a pulpy combat-oriented game; some other system for a more intrigue-based game; maybe a brief "package" of changes/alterations/new monsters to run it in d20.

Much to ponder.

Personally, I would make a custom system. The way I see it, this allows you to get the exact feel of what you want. It lets you match it to the fluff directly. It also lets you control the simplicity/complexity.

Now it also involves a lot more effort on your part. So, do you want to spend time testing/trying out a whole bunch of systems? Or do you want to just build from the ground up?

I mean, one of the bigger things is what kind of dice do you want to use? Only d10? d20s? d6s? While systems do use different dice, once you accept one, your kinda at its mercy.

Now this is something I've been thinking about in general about table-top games. And I can see it applying to CE. Races, normally races are just something that affects your starting attributes, after that it has little impact on your character in a crunch sense (I'd imagine it matters when you RP, but that's just me). So why not make a system where your character evolves racially as well as skillfully or by class, or however it is people advace.