Discussion: History

[daggerhart]

more thought provoking questions from the Fantasy Worldbuilding Questions, by Patricia Wrede:

How far back are there records or tales of historical events? How widely known are these stories?
    * Do average people believe old tales, or do they dismiss some that have a basis in fact (e.g., Troy)?
    * How long have there been people on this world? Did they evolve, were they created by the gods, or did they migrate from somewhere else? If there are non-humans, how long have they been around and where did they come from?
    * Where did civilization begin? What directions did it spread? How was its development affected by the presence of magic? The presence of non-human races, if any? The actions or direct interventions of the gods?
    * Which peoples/countries/races have traditionally fought, allied, traded, or been rivals? Where are there still hard feelings about old events?
    * Which peoples/countries/races have been in conflict in the recent past? Why? When and why was the most recent war? Who won?
    * Which peoples/etc. are considered the most civilized? Which are most technologically advanced? Which are most magically advanced? Least advanced? Why?
    * Is there a "trade language" that facilitates commerce between countries that don't speak the same tongue? Is there a "universal language" spoken by educated or noble persons, as Latin was in the Middle Ages?

[/i][note]please remember, that we don't have to answer all of these questions.  But hopefully we get some good discussion/recommendations concerning this.
And some of this (such as 'population') we will need to figure out.[/note]History of the Big Gov. (to be code-named later)

How accessible is this area? What natural features mark the borders? Who are the neighboring countries/peoples and what are they like?
          * How do the weapons of this country compare with those of surrounding cities and countries? Have there been recent innovations that may upset the balance of power, or is everyone more or less equal?
          * Who are the rivals or enemies of this country? How close are they physically? How powerful?
          * How many people are there in this country? How does this compare with world population? What is considered a small town/large town/city in terms of number of people?
          * How diverse is the population of this country -- how many different races (human or non-human), creeds, etc. normally live in various cities and towns in this country? In what percentages?
          * Is magic legal here? All magic, or only some types? Do laws vary widely from country to country, or is the attitude generally similar?
          * What does this country import? Export? How important is trade to the economy? How is currency exchange handled, and by whom? What is the system of coinage, and who mints it?
          * Which peoples/countries/races have been in conflict in the recent past? Why? When and why was the most recent war? Who won?
          * How much of the country is farmland? Forest? Desert? Mountains? Plains?
          * What are the primary crops (e.g., potatoes, cotton, tobacco, coffee, rice, peanuts, wheat, sugarcane, etc.)? Are any grown mainly for export? What crops can not be grown here because of the soil, climate, or for other reasons?
          * What water resources available, and for what uses (a mill wheel requires flowing water, i.e., river or stream; irrigation needs a large, dependable water source like a lake or large river: etc.)?
          * What wild animals, actual or imaginary, live in this area? Are any of them potentially useful -- e.g., for fur, whale oil, hides, magical ingredients, hat feathers?
          * How do most of the citizens make their living -- farming, fishing, trade, manufacturing? Do non-humans tend to take up different trades from humans? Are they legally limited to certain trades?

[/i]

[Ishmayl-Retired]

I know we don't have to answer them all, but damn that's a lot of info to absorb and think about.  Maybe we should condense them down to something a little more appropriate for D&D... maybe take out some of the questions that have nothing to do with fantasy.

[Soup Nazi]

I just may copy/paste this into Word and use it in the future for my own projects. I've addressed almost 100% of these questions in Sulos, without ever having a nice guidline like this to follow. Now I do. :)

-Nasty-

[daggerhart]

i took out a big chunk of the questions.

i recommend picking just a few you want to answer, and give it a shot...

we can work form there.

i'll post my answers concerning the BFG shortly.

[daggerhart]

How did the Totem Gods gain power?
are they related to the regular pantheon?
What sort of deal did the first city-states make with the totem gods for protection?

Do evil cultures seek an evil Totem, or is the culture's alignment driven by the Totem?

How much impact do the totems have on everyday life?

do people expect them to do stuff, or to sleep & grant spells ?

[Xeviat]

I say that people's relationships with the totems are loose at best. People migrated to where a totem they wished to be near lived; an evil race would flock to an evil totem, lizardfolk would flock to a crocodile totem ...

I don't see people having any expectations of the totems. Sure, people will pray to them and will beg for them to give their aid, but largely it is their decision to do it. They may not even be granting spells, if we in fact have the Totem priests be Druids as I've suggested.

I like the idea of the Totems not being truely "deific". Sure, people worship them, but it would be like worshiping a dragon or the tarrasque. Perhaps the Totems were created due to the event which destroyed the lost empire; some monstrous magical event which changed a number of creatures (godzilla anyone?).

I'm going to copy those questions too, use them for brainstorming. I'll post any ideas that come up.

[Ishmayl-Retired]

I still like the idea that the totem "gods" are actually constructs of an ancient race that recent people found and activated; maybe this somehow started some "Big War."  Now they're all deactivated, but wherever they settled down (or bit the dust), that's where the city-states spawn that worship them... I'm probably in the minority here, though.

[daggerhart]

The first man to kill a totem god... now that is a place to start... That could explain what started the wars, the increasing insecurity od the city-states as they realize their gods are mortal, etc.

(moved this here, because i think it deserver attention ;) ..)

i think thats a pretty cool place to start working with recent history.   (the 'hows' and 'whys' of the attempted re-unification...)

what do you think about the ancient history?

im been triyng to come up with a solid history to provide the totem gods.  
something that makes sense as to why these people have flocked to the giants.

only thing i can think of, is as protection from outside threat.

maybe one city state started by summoning a demon to help in a battle w/ another CS.

and from there it esculated.

[Numinous]

Ah, that's a good idea.  Or maybe a wizard awakened a creature and enlarged it.

[brainface]

im been triyng to come up with a solid history to provide the totem gods.
something that makes sense as to why these people have flocked to the giants.

i like the idea of totems being mysterious and undefined, most of them older than recoreded history. maybe go a morrowind route, and give them largely contradictory origin myths sharing only a few common points. two tribes explanations for the totems dont have to match up. we dont even have to define 'the truth' while writing the setting ;)

BRAINSTORMING:
for a totem like the torrasque, you could have a tribe of elves following it that lived off the creatures it killed. the same tribe's been following it for so long (millenia, even) that it no longer sees them as a threat, and ignores them. they collect any raw materials left in its wake  when it goes on a rampage every few years, and live of stored food when it sleeps. if it ever approaches a settlement, heralds sound horns to warn city to flee or prepare, and the elvin druids try to lure it away from civilized areas whenever possible. catastrophes have resulted when they failed.
 

A dwarvwn city could be built around a titan statue. legends state that the titan originally appeared to the dwarves and taught them metal work, construction, clerical magic tied to the tian, and general civilizationstuffs, as they were the titan's 'chosen'. however, the titan has slept for generations, and some now doubt its any more than a statue, but no vandal can leave any kind of mark in the stone.  

[Ishmayl-Retired]

Well then, maybe we should start working on what different totem gods exist, and which cultures and city-states they "belong" to.  I don't know if I necessarily see each of the core races having their own totem god.  

I feel like it works best with (perhaps unexplainedly) large creatures; natural giant animals, super-old and powerful dragons, ridiculously powerful magical beasts (kraken, tarrasque); and maybe even just some statues (like brainface's dwarven titan).  How about we start listing out some of the beings we'd like to see and how we'd like to incorporate them, and we can maybe pick and choose from there.  For me, I really like the idea of a kraken being one.

The Dweller Beneath
The port city-state, Bahka-Ru (just making something up here), worships a creature in the Deep that is so large, and so powerful, that it literally effects all aspects of life in Bahka-Ru.  When the Kraken (whom the clergy calls "The Dweller Beneath") stirs, huge tidal waves wash over the lands.  When the Kraken is angry, his magic causes flash floods, or powerful tornados and storms.  The Kraken has been known to battle other creatures in the Deep, and when they strike the ground, powerful tremors send tsunamis inland, and cause violent volcanic eruptions.  Once a year, the people of Bahka-Ru sacrifice a herd of goats on a burning ship, far out into the sea, to appease their deity in hopes that he will not strike out in any sort of retribution that year.

The peoples' stories of the local weather and natural disasters are nothing more than myths, based on this powerful creature whom few have seen (much like Greek myths of a god throwing bolts of lighting from the heavens).

Keep in mind, both the names here and their reasons are all just suppositional.  I'm just throwing out some things I'd like to see.

[daggerhart]

those are all cool ideas..

i was thinking, with something like the kraken, you could actually have 3 diff tribes of people worshiping it.

the sahaguain, human , and mermaid CSs (hundreds of miles from each other)  could all wordship the kraken, but not really be aware of it.

i also dig that group of elves that just follows the tarrasque around and eat what he doesnt.   thats awesome ;).

[Numinous]

A celestial unicorn could be a totem.  Maybe not super-big, but it's purity and grace could be supernatural.

[Túrin]

I was under the impression that the totem gods actually sprang up only after the old empire vanished (so that would be far more recent than is supposed here).

Speaking of the old empire, what was it like? How old was it? Why did some of its former inhabitants flock to the totems while others (the tyrannical empire) started worshipping a pantheon? What did people worship in the days of the old empire?

;) Túrin

[Soup Nazi]

I envision the totem gods as an ancient primitive religion, that was repressed by the old empire, and rediscovered after it's collapse. Maybe the totem gods were sleeping, or bound somehow by the old empire, and freed after it fell apart.

The new empire seeks to bring these so-called heretics back under their control, and rebind the Totem gods before they can do any significant damage.

-Nasty-