[poll] d20 Mana System: Need Help Fast!

[Xeviat]

(For those of you who do not know, I have been working on an MP system for some time now. It is almost complete, and it will be posted online as soon as this last issue is resolved. I need all the help I can get, so please offer what you can)

Need help now! I have finalized the sorcerer MP progression; it is comparable to the Psion progression, but I have made it with a certain amount of ... sense that the Psion progression's erratic growth lacked. Instead of having 343, the sorcerer has 324, which is exactly equal to a wizard's spell slots converted to MP ... which oddly enough is 9 (spell level) x2 squared.

Now, I'm set about that above, it's moving into play testing. But I'm not sure if the Wizard should get less MP than the Sorcerer. Sorcerers learn 2 spells at each level (which can be of any level they can cast; like a Psion); wizards also learn 2 spells at each level, but they can research and transcribe more. But how a wizard "prepares" spells, and the number of MP they should get, comes into question; which is what this post is about.

I have three possible choices. The first is my current idea, the one I lean towards. The second will be called the "Erudite" theory, because it is based on the Complete Psionic Erudite vs. Psion balance. The third, and most controvercial, was just created a few seconds ago.

Theory 1
In this idea, wizards still keep a spell-book. They also have a spell slot table like before, only they only have (at maximum) 2 slots for each spell level. At the beginning of the day, a Wizard chooses which of their spells they know (which are in their spell book) they wish to place into these slots. Once placed in a "preparation slot", the wizard can cast freely from these spells as if they were a sorcerer and these prepared spells were their spells known.

This wizard will either have the same amount of MP at 20th level (324) as the Sorcerer, or they will have less (216). 216 was determined because it is equal to 324/1.5; 1.5 was the factor chosen because 6/4 equals 1.5 (sorcerers have 6 spells per day of each spell level, wizards have 4 of each).

Theory 2: Erudite

In the Erudite theory, Sorcerers and Wizards have the same amount of MP. While sorcerers have a limited number of spells known, Wizards are limitless; what ever is in their spell book, they know. The difference is that once a wizard casts a spell, this spell is "locked in" for the day; the wizard only has as many as 11 unique spells per day. Once the wizard has "locked in" a number of spells equal to their unique spells per day (which is listed with their class table; they start with 1 and they gain 1 at each even level, ending at 11 at 20), they can only cast from these "locked in" spells.

So, in this system, both characters have the same amount of MP, sorcerers have limited knowledge and wizards have unlimited knowledge, but wizards can only access so much of their knowledge in the course of the day.

Theory 3
This is the most radical theory. In this idea, the Sorcerer will have more MP than the wizard (324 vs. 216). The Sorcerer has a limited number of spells known, and the wizard has a theoreticaly limitless amount of spell knowledge (what ever is in their book, they know). Here's where the differences lay: instead of having to prepare spells, wizards will be able to cast from all the spells in their book.

I have grown fond of this idea in the last several minutes because it gives me the impression of a classical wizard. The wizard walks around with this big, regal, protected tome, and casts their spells from it. Perhaps this wizard could also inscribe spells into wands and staffs, or take the "Spell Knowledge" feat to memmorize the spell in such a way that they no longer need to have it in their book.

Sorcerers, in difference from wizards, have more MP per day but a limited knowledge base.

[Soup Nazi]

Well you know my Thought. I support the erudite is to wizard as psion is to sorcerer analogy. I just love symmetry between classes.

-Nasty-

P.S. the last option seems like it is really ripping off the wizard MP wise.

[Poseptune]

I don't know if I read the second theory correctly or not, but at lower levels the wizard is going to have to be very cautious about what spells he cast. Only 2 unique spells at 3rd level choosing from a minimum of 6 spells. You may have wizards that are VERY stingy with the spells they cast.

Option 1a. seems simple and straight forward. It also seems very much like the way the Wizard and Sorcerer are done now, though if you are looking to change the current magic system and make the Wizard and Sorcerer more diverse this may not be the route to go.

I like the third option as well, for the same reason you have grown fond of it. It has the feel of a traditional fantasy wizard. The only problem is that the book becomes more important than it already is. Evil DM's will target it more and scared DM's would be worried that they will mistakenly damage the book/s. Though giving them the ability to memorize some spells as the move up in level might help them alot. Say every third level they can memorize one spell that they can cast without their book.

[Xeviat]

About wizards loosing their book; what happens to a fighter when he's hit with a disjunction, or just put to sleep and all their equipment is taken away. Casters unfairly have less reliance upon magic items; maybe that's a fair issue.

Other than my vote, there are now four votes; one for each. Any more?

[limetom]

The erudite option seems to be the best option.

[Xeviat]

As a defense of the erudite option: At 3rd level, a wizard would only have 2 first level slots and 1 second level slot. They should have a bonus first and a bonus second.

The erudite, on the other hand, has 2 unique powers (the wizard could have 3 first and 2 seconds if they have an int of 14). But, with their PP (which is 11 base and 3 bonus), they could cast 2 2nd level spells (like the wizard has), 3 first level spells, and still have 5 pp left. Consider it as if the wizard prepped the same spell for their 2 second level slots and the same spell in their 3 first level slots, except they had to pick them before they knew what was coming.

The only problem ... I can't openly copy the erudite as it is not OGC. That puts a big damper on things.

[Lmns Crn]

I can't say I'm really that fond of variant 2 (erudite) or 3, of your proposed options.

I could even suggest another option (OPTION OVERLOAD!), one that I've used myself to handle the spellcasting of my own wizard-variant. It's a blend of prepared and spontaneous spellcasting that I believe allows players a good deal of flexibility without being overpowered in combat. The details are as follows:

A mage chooses to prepare spells using some or all of his available spell points; spell points not occupied in this way are left free for spontaneous casting of any spell the mage knows, with the catch that spells spontaneously cast have their casting time increased by a factor of ten.

So they have a huge amount of flexibility in matters where time is not of the essence by leaving their spell points uncommitted to prepared spells. Or, they prepare spells for quick use, sacrificing their flexibility for speed.

[Epic Meepo]

I would vote for a different option: use the spell point rules from Unearthed Arcana, then base your augmentable versions of spells on that.

[CYMRO]

One thing I did in Altvogge was give Wizards the entire W/S spell list and moderate resource points.  Sorcerers get almost double the resource points, but their new spell list is limited to "flash and splash".  

Spellbooks and spell research are supported for wizards by their Traditions, making the gaining of new spells dependent on how well your character has curried favor with his superiors and fellow Alumni.

[Soup Nazi]

I would vote for a different option: use the spell point rules from Unearthed Arcana, then base your augmentable versions of spells on that.

Xeviat has already converted every spell in the PHB to the same system used in the XPH. Scrapping that to start over would be tons of work thrown out the window.

I know the erudite is not OGC, but that doesn't mean a wizard variant based loosely upon the concept would be impossible. Learn your spells through research, scrolls, and dusty old tombs of arcane knowledge. You commit those spells to memory forever...but as you cast spells each day you lock them in.

Suppose that a 20th sorcerer in Xeviat's system knows 40 spells, so the wizard should probably lock in at half that many (or 20 at level 20). My numbers may be off here, because I don't know the exact numbers of the sorcerer in Xeviat's system, but the concept remains the same.

The sorcerer and wizard could learn the same number of spells at each level (maybe 2 each time they gain a level), but the wizard can learn more along the way from scrolls and books.

That's basically what I suggested to Xeviat over IM, and what led to the erudite option. It enables the classes to have the same pool of magical power, but makes them functionally quite different. The srocerer learns their spells naturally (like a psion), and the wizard learns their spells through study and research (like an erudite). The comparisons to psionic classes are the most accurate because the MP system is based almost exactly after the psionic power point system.

I don't feel that either class should have significantly more or less MP than the other, because that clearly makes one class better than the other. Given that the augmentation system encourages you to power up almost all your spells to ninth level effects, too much MP = too many 9th level effects. 360 MP = 18 9th level spells, which is more than enough for 4 per encounter (assuming 4 encounters per day), with a 40 MP left over for utility spells. I could support a system that provides 360 for sorcerers, and say 320 for wizards, but any difference greater than that would be extremely imbalanced in this system. Heck even that is pretty scary, since spells are generally more powerful than psionic powers (in most cases anyway).

-Peace Out-

[Xeviat]

I would vote for a different option: use the spell point rules from Unearthed Arcana, then base your augmentable versions of spells on that.

The spell point system from Unearthed Arcana is horrible; watch what it does:

The sorcerer functions relatively similar to the psion; they have a set number of spells known and spell points to cast those spells with. The wizard, though, has spell slots that they can prepare their spells into, and they still gain bonus spell slots for having a high intelligence score. Once prepared, the wizard can cast from these prepared spells spontaneously as if they were a sorcerer and their prepared spells are their spells known. So, while the sorcerer knows around 4 spells of each level, the wizard has 4 spell slots of each spell level plus bonus spell slots for a high int plus the ability to trade out their "spells known" each day.

And for all this, the sorcerer gets 20 extra spell points ... that's one extra 9th level spell each day.

For simplicities sake, I think I'm favoring option 1a; wizard has the same MP as the sorcerer, but has half as many spell slots as the sorcerer has spells known. This way the wizard has an unlimited knowledge base, but can only access a little at a time. I don't like the "lock in" system because it takes away an amount of the "preparedness" a wizard is suposed to subscribe to, and it makes clerics and druids potentially overpowered through too much versatility. Also, "locking in" spells just doesn't fit in with the current wizard/cleric/druid system, and the idea of this MP system is that the classes should require the smallest amount of change.

But ... 360 mp will allow 18 spells per day at highest power; that's effectively the sorcerer's 6 spells per day of their 7th, 8th, and 9th level spell slots. I've been speaking to nasty about giving the wizard/cleric/druid only 240 mp at 20th, which is 12 spells per day at highest power, which is comparable to those class's 4 spells per day of their 7th, 8th, and 9th level slots. I think in order to retain as much synergy with the base PHB system, I'm going to have to give the cleric/druid/wizard the same number of spell slots as they have in the PHB, but only 270 MP at 20th; the sorcerer will retain their same spells known, but will have 360 MP at 20th.

As a side note, nasty and I ended up discovering a very nice formula for determining MP at any given level, utilizing caster level and highest spell level. Thus, the formula can be used to determine the MP of any class, even for Ranger/Paladin types.

[Epic Meepo]

Xeviat has already converted every spell in the PHB to the same system used in the XPH. Scrapping that to start over would be tons of work thrown out the window.

The spell point system in Unearthed Arcana is the same system used in the XPH.  Every spell has a spell point cost equal to the power point cost of a psionic power of the same level; every spellcasting class has a spell point progression similar - but not quite equal - to the power point progression of a psion; and a version of "Option 1b" described in this thread has already been implemented.

[Xeviat]

Xeviat has already converted every spell in the PHB to the same system used in the XPH. Scrapping that to start over would be tons of work thrown out the window.

The spell point system in Unearthed Arcana is the same system used in the XPH.  Every spell has a spell point cost equal to the power point cost of a psionic power of the same level; every spellcasting class has a spell point progression similar - but not quite equal - to the power point progression of a psion; and a version of "Option 1b" described in this thread has already been implemented.

But you've failed to notice that preparation based casters still prepare spells using the spell slots, including bonus slots for a high casting stat, and then they cast spontaniously from these. That means there is no reason to ever play a sorcerer in that system, because the sorcerer gets 1 spell per day more than the wizard but will know much less and not have an advantage with spontaneous casting.

I've played the system before. It unfairly penalizes sorcerers and adds too much versatility to wizards and clerics. My system seeks to correct the imbalances of the UA system; the UA system is based on early ideas for the XPH system, but they are not one and the same.

[Epic Meepo]

I guess that's true.  Since you're eliminating spell slots altogether, those rules won't quite work.

As an aside: next time you use the spell point rules, give the sorcerer something like the wild surge ability of the wilder class.  It balances out his lack of versatility nicely.

[Xeviat]

I don't want to remove spell-slots entirely though; preparation casters still need some sort of limitation on what they can prepare, unless I decide to go as radical as option #4 (though it may be going further than I'd like to).